ATTN:Amanda Buckner…and anyone else who wants to respond

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    kaitlinrose
    Post subject: ATTN:Amanda Buckner…and anyone else who wants to respond .Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:40 am
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    So, I’m in agreement with most of what you said about the state of Women’s MMA and find it refreshing to hear such a candid answer in a published interview. What do you think the solution to some these problems would be?

    Its crappy that the promoters are choosing female fighters based solely on pay, but how can a less established fighter legitimately ask for pay similar to someone more established like yourself?

    I’m also wondering if you think women fighters should not accept a relatively well paying fight if the rounds will only be three minutes? Should organizations that have modified rules, such as Smackgirl, Elite XC, and Fatal Femmes be avoided all together? If so, do you think there will be enough of a demand for female fighters that they will be forced to change their position?

    I’m respectfully asking your thoughts on this because I think these are things we all need to discuss if it is ever going to improve. Please (everyone) weigh in with your thoughts on the subject.
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    frankp316
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:14 am
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    I think Amanda addressed that by stating that the ultimate solution is for UFC to have women on their shows. We all know why that won’t happen and that’s all I have to say about it. The three minute rounds are standard for womens bouts in Japan. The new owners of Smackgirl are making some changes to some of their other goofy rules mainly because Tsuji & Fujii want the rules to conform to the rest of the world. I’m not sure if boycotting promotions over three minute rounds is the solution. I think inexperienced fighters undercutting established fighters is a bigger issue and realistically is something that could be advocated at a grass roots level. If promoters get the clear message that they can’t cheap out, maybe some of the other things can fall into place.
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    Jennifer Howe
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:48 am
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    I was so glad to see and read that interview. I respect Amanda more than anyone else in this sport, actually world. She is one of the most honest and caring people you will ever meet.
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    debi
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:58 am
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    Its as HUGE problem. and Im SO excited to see its being adressed by other females. Girls don’t seem to understand nor care until its THEM, whose put years into training and their career, then they wonder why they cant get fights or money.

    I was told by a girl who fought on a long ago IFC she made $5000 this was ten years ago. now they pay $500. IN cali, iv had promoters laugh at me asking to be on cards, because why should they if they can just get a girl fight for cheap and easy. A few months ago in Vegas I wanted a fight, but after I PAID for my medicals I was fighting for FREE. I had no choice but to not do it.

    It happens everywhere and needs to change. I held out for a long time and still do, but for gods sake IM going to have ENSURE or depends as a sponsor if I hold out any longer. LOL

    Kaitlin is correct, whats needed is solutions. Id love to hear what people have to say on this issue. As for me Im creating the Leauge. to do my part, Im hoping to really try to change things for the girls. BUt I can’t nor do I want to do it alone.

    so remember if your negitoating your purse and dont care now, remember one day you will.
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    kaitlinrose
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:03 pm
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    UFC would be ideal, but as you stated it isn’t likely. I think it could change if more mainstream fans got into Women’s fighting.

    I guess I am not sure exactly what is meant by “undercutting”. Are inexperienced fighters calling up promoters and saying “Ill do it for less” when an experienced fighter is scheduled to fight?

    It seems as though it would only be natural for an inexperienced fighter to accept less money than an established one. They aren’t worth as much to the promoter or the fans. Am I missing something?

    Do you think there are enough fans of women’s mma out there to keep promoters from simply dropping women’s fights from a card if they refuse to fight?
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    frankp316
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:33 pm
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    Some promoters will take shortcuts and cheap out given the opportunity. It’s like Debi said. Fighters need to be educated about the long term repercussions of selling themselves short. And some promoters look at womens MMA as a sideshow anyway. Who cares if it’s a good fight? The girls are just a card filler anyway. Some would rather save a few bucks than stage a quality bout with quality fighters.
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    local13
    Post subject: Female Fighters need to unitePostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:17 pm

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    As a lawyer, I look for legal solutions to problems, but not necessarily ones involving the filing of lawsuits. If most of the top women MMA fighters either unionized or formed an association that established a minimum pay scale for female MMA fighters, these women would have leverage to force the promoters to pay a fair amount for a bout. A producer would always be free to exceed any minimum pay scale, but could not pay less than whatever rates were established.

    If most of the top female MMA women united in this way, it would force promoters to agree to a minimum pay scale, or be shut out from using the best fighters on their cards. I would hope women’s MMA has progressed to the point where the fans would be upset if they clearly knew the main reason they were unable to watch their favorite female fighters was due to the slave wages offered by the promoters. A little organization and publicity should accomplish that realization.

    Barry
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    Jennifer Howe
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:45 pm
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    I’m not sure what the top ladies out there are making but my first fight back in 1998 (dam I’m old) was for 500. The one thing that bothers me about what is going on is promoters not using women like Amanda because they don’t like her look. They want her to be a little cutie pie. It bothers me that she puts in as much work as she does, has all the skill it takes, conducts herself in a respectable manner and is turned away because they don’t like what she looks like.
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    abuckner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:51 pm
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    Kaitlin – First off please don’t think I’m judging you or the decisions you’re making in your career because I definitely am not. From what I’ve seen so far I think you’re a great addition to the fight game on both a skill and intellectual level. My honest answer to all the things you brought up is I don’t know. I really wish I had all these ideas and plans of what could help or make a difference but I don’t. It’s something I think about all the time, something that keeps me up at night. I can at least give a couple of responses to some things you brought up:

    In regards to less established fighters asking for similar pay to a more established fighter I don’t think that you should. I’m not in disagreement with younger girls fighting for less money. I am however in disagreement with myself not getting to fight because promoters want to use girls they can pay less. This is more a promoter issue than something that younger fighters are doing wrong I think. I’m not sure how to fix this. What I can tell you is what Debi pointed out and that is that if we don’t figure out a way to change things then 12 fights from now, when you’re one of the best, and you deserve to get great fights and great pay it won’t be there and you’ll be sitting there watching the next Kaitlin Young fighting on an internet video.

    The question you pose about whether or not female fighters should not accept a relatively well paying fight under altered rules or weird situations is really the big one I think. This is an incredibly difficult question and the answer depends on how you look at it, will things get changed better from the inside or by “boycotting” a situation like that. Elite is a tough one because it’s a mixed card and in theory they could just say screw it and get rid of the women. Of course they would then have nobody for Gina to fight so that pose a problem for them from a business perspective since they’ve promoted her quite a bit. FFF is a bit of a different story though since it’s all women. Someone is obviously making money off of some aspect of FFF or they wouldn’t keep doing it. So someone has a stake in a situation where all the women say “Sorry we’re professional mma fighters and want to be treated that way” My fight for FFF has been confirmed by the promoter and my opponent as five minute rounds. We’ll see if that happens. What I do think would be at least a step in the right direction is if all women agreed on certain terms and then when dealing with a promoter we’re all asking for the same thing as far as rules and time limits. The problem with that happening is that somewhere along the line someone will get an offer they don’t want to pass up and say screw it and just agree to whatever the promoter is asking for.
    Going in to a situation like Elite is precarious. I know people say things about people getting obsessed with the time limits but it’s not the time that’s the problem, it’s the reason behind it. There are only two possibilities, one is that they made it for Gina seeing as that’s what she was used to and would be to her advantage and the other would be that they just feel it’s important to emphasize that professional women are not capable of competing for five minutes. Either of these options is so disturbing. I honestly lean towards the first one given the weight class that was made. I don’t care what anyone says, it’s been long accepted that 135lbs was a division. Maybe there have been catch weight fights but you’ve never heard of a 140lb division or you wouldn’t have all these 135 lb women scrambling to put on weight so they don’t get tossed around. Again, I think it all comes down to whether or not you think you can best change things from the inside or the outside. And then there is the question of where do we draw the line. What happens when you’re making good money and you’re a top fighter and they decide they want you to do two minute rounds, or wear bigger gloves, or wear a pink tutu when you fight (obviously an extreme example but you get the idea). Where do the choices we’re making right now about this stuff leave us five years from now? For me it won’t matter because I’ll be long gone by that time, but it will matter to you.

    Frankp316 – I’m not sure what other shows in Japan do but my fights for smackgirl were five minute rounds.

    Thanks to anyone that had the patience and interest to read through this long post. I really feel like this topic is important and I hope some of the smart people on this forum can come up with some better ideas than I’ve been able to.
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    kaitlinrose
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:01 pm
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    Yeah, I agree with Jennifer. Thats silly bullshit.

    I’m sure that many of us have noticed that when a thread is started about female fighting in other forums, such as sherdog and MMA, there are always plenty of comments from fans who have no desire to watch women’s mma.

    As much as I like to blow off their opinions, I can’t help but realize that it does represent what some of the MMA fans are thinking. Those are just the fans that are against watching/paying for women’s fights. You have to also assume that there is a fair amount of the population that is indifferent about women’s fighting, and finally there are the fans of female fighting. I don’t think that the last group is large enough to sway promoters. I could be wrong about this, but it is the general feeling I get.

    In my opinion, it is going to take a whole lot more exposure of great female fighters before they have enough pull to successfully boycott. I think at this point women fighters could be easily dropped from some promotions without too much protest from the fans. Its getting better though.
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    Josh Barnett
    Post subject: Well here my POVPostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:10 pm
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    Honestly the men on most shows aren’t getting alot of money either. The scale for women’s fighting seems to be 500-3000 most of the time but you have to also understand that 3000 is often what the main event man would get on most cards. Why would they pay that to a woman especially if she is not a draw for their area. Most fight promotions are not international or even national. They make their money regionally and need people that will draw in that region.

    Why am I gonna pay Amanda thousands to fight in WA when I know the people there aren’t going to come to see her when I can pay a local pro that may bring 200-300 paid fans on his own. Now figure my venue is likely no bigger than 1500-2000 seats. The promotion needs to make money somehow or no one’s fighting. Not women and not men either.

    Now if I have a show like EliteXC this is more of an option but again it comes down to whether or not they think the fighter can draw. Promoters want money bottom line. Without money there is no promotion and they want to be succesful so they aren’t going to risk losing money, and their own profits to “benefit the sport”

    There aren’t many promotions that are large enough and run womens fights regularly so the chances for the top girls to get paid well isn’t great. No one factors that in it seems as well as the belief that since fighter X is accomplished they “deserve” high pay. We all “deserve” to paid well but the fact is how many of us can bring the money in? That’s the golden equation right there.

    That said, my fighters are top level and are paid as such. We have the same difficulty getting the fights as there isn’t alot of options for woman’s fighting anyway, but we have been paid better as the fight game has increased and continue so.

    Josh
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    kaitlinrose
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:13 pm
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    Thanks for responding Amanda. I posted the above response before I saw yours. ^^^LOL

    It is a tough situation, and from the sound of it you have been through a lot of crap lately with promoters and such. I’m really sorry to hear about all of that….and the tutu bit isn’t that far out, someone sent me a myspace message asking if I would take a fight in a bikini. WTF? 🙄

    I’m not necessarily looking for specific answers to some of the great points that you brought up in your interview as much as trying to start some more discussion about it. Thanks again for taking the time to give more thoughts.
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    abuckner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:30 pm
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    Josh – I was more talking about larger promotions. I definitely agree that smaller, local shows need to use local talent for the most part, male or female.

    One other kind of random thought before I’m done with the internet for the night. One thing I have noticed through the course of my fighting is that the people who oppose womens fighting are much more prone to being vocal about it. There are a lot of people out there that support womens fighting but just never think to be vocal about it, whether that means supporting it on an internet forum, or making themselves heard to promotions. I think this leads to a false idea of how many people actually like to see good womens fights.
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    frankp316
    Post subject: Re: Female Fighters need to unitePostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:26 am
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    local13 wrote:
    As a lawyer, I look for legal solutions to problems, but not necessarily ones involving the filing of lawsuits. If most of the top women MMA fighters either unionized or formed an association that established a minimum pay scale for female MMA fighters, these women would have leverage to force the promoters to pay a fair amount for a bout. A producer would always be free to exceed any minimum pay scale, but could not pay less than whatever rates were established.

    If most of the top female MMA women united in this way, it would force promoters to agree to a minimum pay scale, or be shut out from using the best fighters on their cards. I would hope women’s MMA has progressed to the point where the fans would be upset if they clearly knew the main reason they were unable to watch their favorite female fighters was due to the slave wages offered by the promoters. A little organization and publicity should accomplish that realization.

    Barry

    This will never happen in a million years.
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    Josh Barnett
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:14 am
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    abuckner wrote:
    Josh – I was more talking about larger promotions. I definitely agree that smaller, local shows need to use local talent for the most part, male or female.

    One other kind of random thought before I’m done with the internet for the night. One thing I have noticed through the course of my fighting is that the people who oppose womens fighting are much more prone to being vocal about it. There are a lot of people out there that support womens fighting but just never think to be vocal about it, whether that means supporting it on an internet forum, or making themselves heard to promotions. I think this leads to a false idea of how many people actually like to see good womens fights.
    Amanda – You’re right in that those with something bad to say are always the ones who seem to do the most talking.

    Women’s MMA needs stand out stars that are so appealing for whatever reason that the fans are drawn to see them fight. When that demand is high then the promoters will have to concede their positions and only then. Although I think 5min rounds are becoming a reality in CA so that should be an improvement.
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    murka
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:55 am

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    It’s also the question of what came before – a chicken or an egg. Gina Carano is the highest paid female fighter right now because she put on one hell of a show with Julie, which was televised on prime time cable, and was universally considered to be the fight of the night at that event. She is still riding out the hype from that fight, but eventually it will end if she does not back it up with similar performance in the near future.

    I wish both Debi and Tara would have taken EliteXC offer, as shitty as it was, put on an amazing performance, and then demanded a better contract afterwards. EliteXC is the largest USA org right now after the UFC, especially with a new network deal. It’s the best venue to showcase female MMA right now, and I don’t understand why female fighters wouldn’t jump on it even if they are not happy with their contract offers.

    Like Josh said men who are not superstars are not getting treated that well eighter.. Hell I remember there was a news story where a male fighter on the undercard was bitching that Gina Carano was on the main card above him and making more money than him 😆

    That’s just from a fan’s standpoint. Obviously I don’t know why both Debi and Tara rejected fighting in the EliteXC, there are a lot of things I don’t know, if I got something wrong feel free to educate me, I just know what I read from the news and it sucks for the fans, lol.
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    JFP
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:00 pm

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    What Elite XC should do is take 10% of Kimbo’s $250k purse and pay women what they deserve. If they are worried about the mainstream draw, just put them on a card with a good main event. Because everybody will even wait and see a forty-six second fight between an overhyped street fighter and a washed up one. Imagine if it was actually a good fight.
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    Sako
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:26 pm

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    Female mma will always have its critics, the same way mma in general and even boxing will always have its critics. The vast majority of people will enjoy watching female fight if it is a good fight. It is not that female fighting isn’t big because it’s unpopular or unmarketable, it’s just that most people haven’t been exposed to it. The sherdog anti-female mma squad is just a vocal minority. Most fight fans are not gonna complain if they see Gina Carano and Kaitlin Young go to war in the cage.
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    J
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:48 am

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    It seems like there is a fine line when deciding whether to take fights right now or not. MMA is obviously exploding. If more experienced women turn down fights that are televised, then it seems like we are losing a chance to show the public what real women’s MMA looks like. Then the promoters end up getting less experienced fighters on the card that aren’t all that great (yet) and the public has even more reason to doubt that women can really perform. But if you take the fight & put on an amazing show, the public gets excited & demands to see more of you, and now you have a better bargaining chip to get the contract you really want.

    Obviously, this is just one side of the coin, and there are a million other reasons not take a crappy contract. But I do think that it echoes the sentiments of a lot of women’s mma FANS who may not understand all of the inner workings of promotions, etc.
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    Sako
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:52 am

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    J wrote:
    It seems like there is a fine line when deciding whether to take fights right now or not. MMA is obviously exploding. If more experienced women turn down fights that are televised, then it seems like we are losing a chance to show the public what real women’s MMA looks like. Then the promoters end up getting less experienced fighters on the card that aren’t all that great (yet) and the public has even more reason to doubt that women can really perform. But if you take the fight & put on an amazing show, the public gets excited & demands to see more of you, and now you have a better bargaining chip to get the contract you really want.

    Obviously, this is just one side of the coin, and there are a million other reasons not take a crappy contract. But I do think that it echoes the sentiments of a lot of women’s mma FANS who may not understand all of the inner workings of promotions, etc.
    They also need to think about the sponsorship opportunities that will open up for them for putting on a good fight on a televised show, especially on CBS. I think sponsorships make up more of a fighter’s income than their fight purse, correct me if I’m wrong. Having sponsors can really helps your career, regardless of how crappy your contract is. Not only will you be getting more income, but you will also get more time to train because you don’t have to work a part-time job to support yourself. People to need to understand that the opportunities are really opening up for female fighters. Having Gina Carano fight on CBS is not gonna immediately alleviate the situation for all female fighters, but it is a step in the right direction. 5 years ago, not even’s men’s mma was on TV and look where we are now.
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    frankp316
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:51 pm
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    That’s precisely why Gina is doing American Gladiators and the rumour mill has Erin Toughill joining the show.
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    Sako
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:56 pm

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    frankp316 wrote:
    That’s precisely why Gina is doing American Gladiators and the rumour mill has Erin Toughill joining the show.
    What a coincidence, because I’ve always imagined Erin as an American Gladiator. But don’t Laila and Erin hate each other?
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    frankp316
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:16 am
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    I dunno. Who cares? They’re taping soon so we should get a confirmation of changes shortly.
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    powerhockey17
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:52 am
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    from somebody who fought from 1996 until 2001..one the reasons I quit was becase of the lack of pay and the way the womne were treated..I see that things are certainly getting better but womens MMA still has a long way to go!

    I am focussing more on training the “Ladies Of Pain” with Lana Stefanac here in San Francisco..We are atracting more women every day and have plans to start a small fight league with womens only fights..

    just my 2 cents..
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    GFC
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:21 am
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    some great points here. and numerous new fem leagues are forming which will both add to and replace existing ones. but one issue i think needs to be emphasized is that ‘drawing power’ is a key with any promotion. Brock Lesnar made 250k coming from the WWE with zero MMA fights while Frank Mir who beat him and had far more fighting experience, and was UFC HW Champion only got 80k…

    there are and will continue to be more girls transitioning from other avenues/ disciplines. and if they were very popular and successful coming from another area or form, then once they transition into MMA it’s very understandable for them to command higher pay for that higher drawing power. it’s just like if Laila Ali moved into MMA and in her second fight ko’d Erin, next beat Lana, then sub’d Marloes it would make sense if she got 60k regardless of whether she only had 3 or 4 MMA fights…

    as for the cropped hair and bikini “looks” issue i think it’s just more bullshit. virtually every girl who fights puts their hair up in cornrows or tight braids so essentially it looks short either way. they have been offering and recruiting girls with a whole range of looks short hair or long from Jan, Cris, Tama, Jen, Tara, etc…and, as for Gina she wears the least revealing sleeved midriff covering gear of any other female fighter and tons of other girls are “attractive” so this whole thing about looks is silly…

    imo any current fighters who are holding out over this type of conspiracy theory hearsay bs are only short-changing themselves and hurting the sport. besides, like i said there are and will be tons of quality female fighters transitioning both unknowns and knowns such as Germaine, Julia Budd, Kerry Vera, Munah Holland, on and on…who are all threats and at or above the level of the top current MMA girls right off the bat. therefore any boycotts will only hurt the current fighters who may end up stuck with lesser leagues which are on long or permanent “hiatus” meanwhile they will simply continue to recruit and build those other new transitioning girls up…

    Shayna was/is one of the very top girls and imo is doing *tremendous* job building up right now bypassing bs rumors and f*ck crying about whether it’s 135 or 140.1 splitting hairs or other crapola excuses…
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    powerhockey17
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:29 pm
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    The one thing that bothers me about what is going on is promoters not using women like Amanda because they don’t like her look. They want her to be a little cutie pie. It bothers me that she puts in as much work as she does, has all the skill it takes, conducts herself in a respectable manner and is turned away because they don’t like what she looks like

    Boy, can I agree with the above statement: This is one of the reasons I quit fighting is becase they would rather promote some Barbie nobody then somebody like me who went undefeated in all my matches including Judo, and BJJ..I got sick of people/promoters telling me that I did not have the “look”..what the F*ck…is this fighting or modelling..I would tell them straight when they would say they did not like my look or could not promote me..

    I am here to Fight not F*ck!
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    GFC
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:52 am
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    well in principle i can understand your point. but in this case i would *hardly* consider Cris Cyborg, TamaChan, Tara Larosa, Debi Purcell, Julie Kedzie, Jen Case, Jan Finney, Tonya Evinger, Kaitlin Young or Shayna Baszler anything near “barbie nobodies” nor is Gina who is thick ethnic Italian looking. in fact, Tama in particular has short punky dyed hair look which is also popular in Japan and similar to Amanda’s, which plenty of people also find very cool and cute. take the singer “Pink” for example who has had cropped pink, lavender, and various other colored hair. it’s a popular girl style nowadays. so it sounds more like an individual issue with that particular promotion and those are just being used as more managerial bullshit excuses…
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    Sako
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:12 am

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    GFC wrote:
    well in principle i can understand your point. but in this case i would *hardly* consider Cris Cyborg, TamaChan, Tara Larosa, Debi Purcell, Julie Kedzie, Jen Case, Jan Finney, Tonya Evinger, Kaitlin Young or Shayna Baszler anything near “barbie nobodies” nor is Gina who is thick ethnic Italian looking. in fact, Tama in particular has short punky dyed hair look which is also popular in Japan and similar to Amanda’s, which plenty of people also find very cool and cute. take the singer “Pink” for example who has had cropped pink, lavender, and various other colored hair. it’s a popular girl style nowadays. so it sounds more like an individual issue with that particular promotion and those are just being used as more managerial bullshit excuses…
    Don’t be too naive, let’s face the facts. It is taboo in this country for a girl to have a bulky “pitbull”-type bodybuilder physique. This why many girls are afraid of lifting weights when they go to the gym. This has nothing to do with hairstyle, Gina Carano can have the same hairstyle as Amanda Buckner and can still be popular because she doesn’t have a masculine-looking face or body.
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    GFC
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:11 pm
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    not at all, the top fighters all have fitness level physiques which is highly feminine for a female athlete and the ideal balance for fighting. Amanda is not even nearly as jacked as Kaitlin, me or numerous others at that weight. bodybuilder mass is a totally different issue and is produced with large amounts of enhancement drugs in which that level of mass is sport specific for bodybuilding not fighting. you’re talking apples and oranges, more and more females are going to gyms to train and realize as long as they don’t abuse drugs there’s nothing “taboo” anymore and will only empower them and improve their physiques/looks and fitness level…and again, Amanda is nowhere near more massed than even Gina, Cris Cyborg or most other girls around that weight nor is her face not cute as many of the girls contracted, her hair is simply cropped and she has somewhat of a hard edged look and some tats but not much different than Tama or what plenty of the other fight girls have…

    evidently, what may have been felt by ‘some individual’ was that a bit of hair change and bringing out more of Amanda’s personality would help as far as the marketing and promotional aspect, not that she didn’t possess those qualities. i’m quite sure Gina has also been given suggestions/advice along those lines which likely accounted for a large part of her marketing and build up success, as i am as well already from various management and promoters, who gives a f*ck…

    image, marketing, show(wo)manship and hype are a big part of the fight game going way back before Muhammad Ali and the sooner more fem fighters realize that instead of taking it personally the faster things will progress…
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