Ever used your martial art(s) in self defense?

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    Chad Moechnig
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    dl_angel
    Post subject: Ever used your martial art(s) in self defense?PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 6:20 pm

    Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:49 pm
    Posts: 150
    Location: Austin, Texas
    I was contemplating today what would happen if someone ever attacked me and I defended myself… I was laughing, trying to think of a guy’s reaction if I put him in an armbar. I imagine that most people who go around attacking people AREN’T expecting a woman to fight back. And some of the things we could do to them would be even LESS predictable (yeh they might expect to get punched or kneed in the groin, for example, but kicked in the head?).

    So I’m wondering- has anyone ever had to defend themself against an attacker, what’d you do to them, and what was their reaction?

    I also wonder how likely it is that anyone who trains would be targetted to be attacked- I look like most girls, but it should be obvious to anyone PAYING ATTENTION that I’m not the best target. Therefore- if no one is able to reply to this post, I won’t be TOO surprised. 🙂
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    Zoe
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:33 pm

    Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:49 pm
    Posts: 42
    Location: New York
    I have a few times, usually in a bar but once on the proverbial dark street. A word of caution here, if you do use any of those tactics you either had better be sure you can overpower the guy or run like hell because the one thing that kind of fightback will likely do is enrage an attacker, particularly a violent rapist type. I used to think they got off on weakness and fear, but realize now it is the violence. In a twisted way it might excite him further. That happened to me. I kicked him in the knee and managed to land a solid punch to the face, but it only made him smile as though he enjoyed it even more and came forward and started grappling with me, trying to get me down. I kicked as much as I could then kneed him in the crotch, and I could feel he was as hard as a rock enjoying it. Then a car stopped and a bunch of college boys ran out and he took off, but I still wonder what would have happened and how it would have turned out. I wanted to stand and fight; I wanted to beat him, because I’m naturally aggressive myself, but I’m not sure that is the wisest thing to do. Just remember such an attacker is unlikely to be a couch potato.
    For what its worth there was an incident here awhile back where a college girl was raped. She had a black belt. She was beaten to death.
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    dl_angel
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 5:47 am

    Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:49 pm
    Posts: 150
    Location: Austin, Texas
    That’s pretty crazy (making a note to never live in NY)… now here’s a question- do you think you were targeted because you looked like you’d fight back and that’s what he was hoping for?

    It does seem though that there are plenty of criminals who target “weak prey”- ie. drunk girls, smaller females- because they’re not necessarily looking for a fight- maybe they just want your purse/wallet. I never really thought about people who actually WANTED a fight… hmm. Hopefully there’s less of those. 😕
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    Zoe
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:37 am

    Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:49 pm
    Posts: 42
    Location: New York
    Well I walk with a pretty confident gait but I don’t think it was that. Your run of the mill purse snatcher is a different sort of person; basically a sneak and opportunist looking for a quick getaway. Criminals who steal aren’t really looking to inflict harm but to get away with it. In some instances a smile assault may occur under more casual circumstances possibly from drunkeness etc. and resistance may cause cooler heads to prevail. But that is usually with someone you know.
    However, a genuine rapist is a psychotic sociopath who will be undeterred by anything other than the possibility of capture. This is usually the case with serial rapists, who are somehow biological deviant as well and they really ought to be deprived of their equipment.
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    dl_angel
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:32 am

    Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:49 pm
    Posts: 150
    Location: Austin, Texas
    Makes sense… in psychiatry, there’s Antisocial Personality Disorder… those people can basically hurt other people, don’t feel empathy for the victim or guilt… there’s a lot more to the diagnosis of course, but studies have suggested that they also feel less pain from punishment and therefore are less threatened by the fear of prison time, getting beaten up, etc. (they don’t LIKE getting locked up though so they’ll try to avoid it). I’d guess that your attacker would definitely fall into that category.

    Sorry for any naivity- I’ve lived in pretty rural areas for most of my life. 😉 I did live in Boston for two years and now in Austin… both cities are pretty safe though.
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    Joana
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:31 am

    Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:56 pm
    Posts: 16
    Location: Poland
    I agree with Zoe. To tell the truth, I find running the best way out.
    The guy who attacked me also didn’t seem to feel any of my kicks (though I didn’t have any martial art’s training then).
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    Zoe
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:25 pm

    Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:49 pm
    Posts: 42
    Location: New York
    Hate to say this dl_angel but Houston and Dallas have much higher crime rates than NYC.
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    ladygrappler
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 5:01 pm

    Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:08 am
    Posts: 27
    Location: new market, Onatrio Canada
    I have used my martial arts a handful of times in self defense situations. I was in an abusive relationship for a long time, and knowing what I know now even though he was larger I could have controled what was going on. I firmly believe that if you train at a good Dojo in a time period close to 2 years you should be able to confidently (no weapons mind yiu thats a totally differnt topic all together) defend yourself from an attacker. I agree 2 years may seem like an awful long time, but you must take into consideration that the pupil would be able to under take ANY possible situtation. Zoe as Im assuming you know since youve been there, absolutely ANYTHING can change into something you’ve nevre seen before. You mentioned that a girl who was a black belt got beaten to death? Im just curious as to what she was a black belt in? There are alot of misconceptions that some of these “sport” martial arts are benifical for the street as well. That is Im afraid un true. I have been caught in a rape situtation where he wanted me on the ground…so thats where i went, i was confident that my escape skills and NHB ground striking was good enough. I guess i was fortuneate enough not to get a SUPER dereanged sicko like Zoes attacker and after i go to the top punched the living shit out of him…i had enough time to run.

    Zoe I empathize with your situation, but in my experiences i have found that fighting back shocks the hell out of alot of them, since we are females (the softer smile) they dont expect it.
    Your sceanrio frightens me tho! Has any one else had problems with Massacistic attackers?
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    dl_angel
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:28 pm

    Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:49 pm
    Posts: 150
    Location: Austin, Texas
    Yeh Houston and Dallas are bad from what I’ve heard. I live in Austin though. For the most part, we have safe streets. I’m originally from New Hampshire… the only thing more rural than NH is Maine or Vermont— our neighbors. Anyways- I think that running is generally best, but there’s some situations where force might be necessary… for example, getting trapped against a door, getting locked in a room, or getting held down. I’ve been trapped against a door before and I managed to get out because the guy’s friends were on the other side of the door talking to him, but if they hadn’t been there then I would’ve had to have done something to get him away from the door and me. I could’ve taken care of the problem quickly and probably fairly painlessly for him if I’d known a few things about martial arts back then. Sometimes verbal assertiveness doesn’t work as well as physical assertiveness- guys don’t always take women seriously when we say something (like, “No”).

    As for sport martial arts, I know that if someone had attacked me while I was taking tkd, I not only would NOT have fought back, but I also wouldn’t have succeeded if I’d tried. Prior to my current training, I’d never sparred to hurt someone and I’d never punched someone before with the intent to harm. And we trained in tkd to be quick and use control, to never use force to hurt other people. I think how you train determines how you would fight in a self defense situation. And I got my belt ranks in TKD from knowing forms and such- not from practical application. My ex once asked me to demonstrate how to get out of someone’s grabbing my wrist- he held on tight, and surprise! I couldn’t get out! I started off trying to use the force that I was used to using and when that didn’t work, increased it… by then though a REAL attacker would’ve known better and probably would’ve done something to incapacitate me. 🙁 That was a scary realization.
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    fight4you
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 6:14 am

    Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:03 pm
    Posts: 432
    the 2 best techniques are 1.) avoid dangerous situations and 2.) run like hell. Not very smile but life affirming.
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    Alex
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 8:06 am

    Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:25 pm
    Posts: 14
    Triple action mace sprays combine OC Pepper with CN tear gas along with UV Marking Dye. OC Pepper causes eyes to slam shut and uncontrollable coughing and choking. CN tear gas causes profuse tearing, and intense burning sensation to the face and disorientation. UV Dye marks the assailant and may aid in identification of the suspect once apprehended.
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    VooDooQueen
    Post subject: PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:06 pm

    Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:54 am
    Posts: 93
    Location: colorado springs
    There are styles of martial arts that arent good in the streets..that is why I chose Shao Lin Kemp….Sensei also teaches us plenty of self defense moves so I feel very confident in many situations.

    I have had to threaten to use my skills once….that guy was too scared to finish what he started.

    VooDoo
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    KnockOut2
    Post subject: PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:04 pm

    Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:19 pm
    Posts: 439
    Location: Louisville, KY
    My thoughts about self defense…

    The best self defense skill to have is psychology.
    The second best skill to have is sprinting.
    Third is conditioning and physical stamina.
    Fourth would be actual fighting ability.

    Of course, safety can very quickly go out the window when some drunk guy calls you a prick and throws his beer at you. Things get very complicated when emotion is involved, so that “psychology” skill is mainly for understanding yourself. Of course, it is also used for interacting with people to diffuse a situation.

    Diffusing a situation doesn’t always mean being “passive”. It could mean confusing the other person, or distracting them. Confusion causes doubt. Doubt can create fear. Sometimes a little bit of alcohol makes the “confusion” part easier. Though, too much alcohol and they can’t even think far enough to be concerned with what you are saying. It’s important to be able to “read” people.
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    fight4you
    Post subject: PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:26 pm

    Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:03 pm
    Posts: 432
    develop 2 things

    Zanshin – outer awareness
    Zenshin – inner awareness
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    scarce
    Post subject: PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:45 pm
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    ….fight4you…….you…are…a fruitcake………….,,,,,…….as a latino…i run…from…no man…….i am only 160…………i have fought …street punks….black and latinos…….plenty…of times…since 1993.,……….the reason…you….learn…martial arts…….is…to find……confidence….in yourself……………but…we have so many cowards…that run……….when you run…….that makes..the criminal laugh……../////the only…thing……that might…make me run……is a gun pointed at me…….but…if…i feel…..the surroundings…are not…ideal…for running……..i would turn…right around…..and die….or kill the bastard……..we learn martial arts…for…a reason……not just for exercise………if you want exercise…….do aerobics…….if you want to run…all the time…..or turn the other cheek…all the time……..wear a pink belt…with you at…all times………cause you nothing….but..a coward………we have soldiers….that are dead in iraq……..cause…they are not scared……they are fighting…..insurgents…..that use bombs……..that use snipers………..they…are not scared………..and…to think…….many……of you…are scared……..cause……the criminal……on the train….is black…or latino…and weighs….300 pounds……….scared..of…a male with a bad attitude…….then…you…should…stay..out…of chicago……..or south central los angeles………cause..that…is all…you see……….i am not telling……..women…..to fight….all the time…….but you…..to make…a stand……….as in ..i do not…want…to be …bothered………you first…calmly……warn the offender……….then…you cross…the street…….if the offender….follows……you go to the middle of the street………and it is show time…….either…he backs…off…….or …you will use……all the techniques……..you have……..why…the middle…of the street……….first…traffic….someone will stop…..second…..you stay…away…from alley…where…you can be dragged…….third…you are visible…..in the street…….if..a car…hits…you…….it…might…the offender first…………….i am…a street fighter……….and…if…there..are black belts…running…….from criminals…….cause…they..look like…thugs….or they are black…or they are latino……..those are black belt fruitcakes……..in everyday…life…….there is a criminal…watching you……..at the grocery store…….at the bank…at the currency exchange…and so..on………….i will not teach…any..of you……how…to dismantle……these punks…..cause you should know…….and you geeks…do not pay…me……..but…i will tell…you…….white..people…on..our train system…….are scared……when a group…of….blacks….or a group…..of latinos…..get..on the train…i see..the fear……in their eyes…..when gang bangers…..are…on the trains………there..is no need…for fear………also…i see..the white people…with…their…artificial…smiles…they..are good…at….when they are scared……….its…a psch-out…they…use…to diffuse…situations………i do not…agree……with…the coward…attitude…..but..i see..it…all the time……….i bet…you….i can…get..on a train……..and…snatch……..the newspaper from 80 percent……of white passengers..and…they…will not say…anything……….why……..cause…they…have….no spine……..and………they hear…the news…..homicide…here…..homicide there……..they are scared……….but…i tell…you…this…..if…you…are…scared…..stay indoors…like…the cowards…you are…………fruitcake..robert…is a big coward…………and…for…the…ladies……..about……dudes….at a bar…..and so forth………first…..of all…….bars…….are…for….mostly…..for ignorant washed up hacks…….or college dorks…..that think they are cool…..drinking…..and tryin g…to meet…chicks………we learn….martial arts…….to defend ourselves…..and ..if pushed..to the limit………..and only…then….do you explode……….everybody…has…a big mouth…on the internet…….but…the day..they are cornered……by a hulky black…or latino male…….they have no words………….trust…me…..when i say…..this………cowards….like….robert…are all over the united states,,,,,,,they run from everything……….if you run from everything….you should…take…up…..track..and field…instead…………not martial arts……………as i have told…..all you geeks..i am a true street fighter……i love ufc..and pride……….but…can not…abide…by rules…in fighting………..and..i always…make…a stand……on the street………no one……can stop…me…on the street……if a bum…asks…you for a quarter …or..the time…….or…a light……..you….have…to know…how to use……body language..that…says………get…the hell out..of my face………..i use it everyday………….every down town bum……..knows…better…than…to ask me for crap………it..is attitude…….that….is …how…you train…yourself…to be stern…….and to always..make…a stand……..another….thing………latinos…and blacks………always…say…..whats up bro…….and stupid…things…like…that…………they…do that……to size you up…………..my….reaction…is simple…………i say…….do i know you……with…a stern voice….and…the street dork…says…no…..and…..you turn……and keep walking………..but……always…think…that…the clown…….might flip out….so take 2 steps…..glance..back..to get…..his position…………another…thing……..latinos..and…blacks…that…first meet…you…….are chatty……why?????….the want..to learn you….they…want…as much info…possible…also….weaknes….addiction…and such……….if you idiots….learn….anything………by police…reports………..strangers…….cause…the most…unsolved cases,,,,,,,,,,,,so if…you….are..chatty….maybe…you…should….shut…up…to strangers………i could…teach..all…you…geeks…but..that..is not…my job……….i can relate…with…you…that….yes…there…are many…criminals…out….there……and…they…..have various…modes……….but…you…have…….to.always…make…a stand………..unless…there..is…a gun…………………….but..a knife…is nothing…….how..to..fight…a knife……you…pick…a brick…or rock…or bottle……..bottle..is the best…i break it…….and…use…it…….for sharpnes…or…a projectile…………….i fear….nothing………my attitude…….changes…with…my surroundings…….just like…..a certain praying mantis……if..i am…at…starbucks..i am…mellow…….surrounded….by caucasians……….if..i am..on the red line transit system…….i am highly alert….anything can happen……..and…anything…does…happen…on that line……..there..are bums..that urinate..on the trains…………….so for the last…time…..stop…..being cowards…….and fight for your right to exist……..when confronted…by a thug……….and robert…you are..a big coward…………………fight before flight………..if..you like flight……join united air lines………scarce one chicago……..i beat up…all races…..if..they…bother my everyday…activities…………REST IN PEACE…to all our fallen soldiers……..fight before flight…..//////
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    VooDooQueen
    Post subject: PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:11 pm

    Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:54 am
    Posts: 93
    Location: colorado springs
    OK…martial arts is there to use to defend yourself..but it is always best to avoid a fight if possible. Perhaps that is just the Shao Lin way..certainly isnt the street thug away. I am sensing some racial tension…I am as cracker as they come and I am not afraid of anyone or anything. I can honestly say that I do not assume that because of someone’s race or gender that they are either a suspect or a victim. I take everyone at face value until they prove me wrong. Martial arts is also about respect for others, self control and most importantly….humility. Humility comes in many forms….bowing out from a useless fight is not cowardice. I suggest doing some reading up on the history of martial arts…start with the Shao Lin Monks in China…..learn the principles of martial arts. It is a weapon which one hopes never to have to use but good to have.

    VooDoo
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    scarce
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:53 am
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    Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:31 pm
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    …okay…….i live..in…a bad….hood…….i will…see…these..punks….again……..so…i do not…attack…unless……they…go..off…the deep…end…….if..you…ask…for..money…..or change..or…a bus….transfer……i give…that……i see…right…thru..you..look…………….that…tells…….the punk……and..the…punks…watching…….i wish…not..to,,,be bothered……..it…all…starts….with….attitude…………..if..you….go..out….and….say…hi….to all the bad guys…or…give..them…..50 cents….everyday….then…you…are…a mark………a person…that….they…can break…if…they…want..to….i know…..alot….about…the street….and i hate…..every…punk..on the streets……..and yes….martial…arts…..should be used…to the extreme…if…you…are being mugged…..or….for…ladies….if…….you…are getting raped……….but…if..you…wait….too..long…in the situation…..you….may…not…get…to…use…those….skills…you…paid….for…at,,,,the dojo………….advice…from..a street fighter/////
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    KnockOut2
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:16 pm

    Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:19 pm
    Posts: 439
    Location: Louisville, KY
    Scarce
    Seriously, it’s the big button right at the bottom of your keyboard. You can’t miss it.

    That’ll be $50 please. Thank you.

    🙂
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    Brynn999
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:34 pm

    Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:56 pm
    Posts: 21
    Location: DFW – TEXAS
    LOL @ KnockOut2
    ….my….thoughts….exactly…….

    Scarce:The Martial arts are exactly what they are called; ART forms. The benefits of mastering these ARTS include effective self defense and awareness. Making the choice not to fight on the streets (and flee if able) is not necessarily indictive of a “coward”, but rather someone with intelligence and discipline. The only things i seem to be getting out of your previous posts in this thread are ANGER and AGGRESSION. It seems apparent that someone, somewhere has done you wrong, but being ANGRY doesnt make you a great fighter. Knowing (and recognizing) when, where, why and how to apply your skills DOES.
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    fight4you
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:43 am

    Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:03 pm
    Posts: 432
    bingo , knockout
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    dl_angel
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 8:03 am

    Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:49 pm
    Posts: 150
    Location: Austin, Texas
    how do any of you actually manage to read scarce’s posts well enough to get upset? I think the format throws me off- my attention span is gone after about 3 words. Ahh going on 6 years of college (graduate school) and I still won’t/don’t read anything that takes too much effort. 8)
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    scarce
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:49 pm
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    Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:31 pm
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    …oh…oh…looks…like…the….whole…forum….has….tipped….my……boat………………someone…..please……throw…a life….preserver………..i is……drowning………help…..help………..//////….5…..4…..3…..2……1…..
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    fight4you
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:12 pm

    Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:03 pm
    Posts: 432
    scarce is a pissant. it can’t help it.
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    scarce
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:14 pm
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    Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:31 pm
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    …..dear dl angel…..it..is…said……that social workers….do…not make for great fighters……because they have too much sympathy///////???????
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    scarce
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:21 pm
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    Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:31 pm
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    …i am the most SIGNIFICANT PERSON IN THIS PLANET……..mark these words…old pops///////
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    ThehoundofCulan
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:32 pm

    Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:04 pm
    Posts: 17
    I agree with the early post that noted quite aptly that the word “art” lies in the term martial art. Let us not forget, however, that the word “martial” is also there. Many martial arts were meant for war and for self-defense. True, some were created as pure art forms, or as exercise to help get a person in shape for meditation. The vast majority of martial arts, however (and this should be even more true of professional fighters) are developed to quickly end a confrontation. However, I should also hope that through study of the martial arts, we have all become that much more aware of the fragilities of the human body and of what kind of damage we are capable of inflicting. Therefore, we should all use what skill we have acquired only in the most dire of situations. The most commonly seen downfall in martial arts training is that we do not practive verbal and physical cues of confrontation, nor ways to defuse a potentially violent situation. For some of us, all we have learned through martial arts is how to break some one down in the most efficient way possible. I hope that everyone here has moved past this and is more aware of their power and the art they represent.
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    Zoe
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:44 pm

    Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:49 pm
    Posts: 42
    Location: New York
    Oh please. Art is a cover. Either you like to fight or you don’t
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    VooDooQueen
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:18 pm

    Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:54 am
    Posts: 93
    Location: colorado springs
    Well…arts aside…heck yeah ..I love to fight….the blows dont bother me…make me fight more fierce. But…I dont go looking for fights though I am always on guard and aware of everything around me. (the military taught me that)
    VooDoo
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    Brynn999
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:42 am

    Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:56 pm
    Posts: 21
    Location: DFW – TEXAS
    Zoe wrote:
    Oh please. Art is a cover. Either you like to fight or you don’t

    Whatever….liking to fight is one thing….HAVING to fight defensively is a completely different notion. The thread started with a great question and quickly deviated (thanks scarce). 🙄
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    Brynn999
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:52 am

    Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:56 pm
    Posts: 21
    Location: DFW – TEXAS
    VooDooQueen wrote:
    OK…martial arts is there to use to defend yourself..but it is always best to avoid a fight if possible……. Martial arts is also about respect for others, self control and most importantly….humility. Humility comes in many forms….bowing out from a useless fight is not cowardice. I suggest doing some reading up on the history of martial arts…start with the Shao Lin Monks in China…..learn the principles of martial arts.
    ZOE: ^ ^ ^
    Last edited by Brynn999 on Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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    Brynn999
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:56 am

    Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:56 pm
    Posts: 21
    Location: DFW – TEXAS
    ThehoundofCulan wrote:
    For some of us, all we have learned through martial arts is how to break some one down in the most efficient way possible. I hope that everyone here has moved past this and is more aware of their power and the art they represent.
    ZOE: ^ ^ ^ ^
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    scarce
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:07 am
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    Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:31 pm
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    ….scarce…says……..fighting is good for your soul/////….stay mellow if you wish//////
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    scarce
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:01 am
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    Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:31 pm
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    …i think all women….should learn kenpo karate first and bjj second…why???????…..well…i shall tell you.
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    Zoe
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:42 pm

    Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:49 pm
    Posts: 42
    Location: New York
    I’ll take a good brawl any day. Don’t need to theorize about it.
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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:38 am

    Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:48 pm
    Posts: 445
    Location: Netherlands
    Zoe wrote:
    I’ll take a good brawl any day. Don’t need to theorize about it.
    Hell yeah! that’s also a theory!
    cool post! 😀
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