How do you counteract jiu jitsu?

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    Chad Moechnig
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    Lana
    Post subject: How do you counteract jiu jitsu? PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:59 pm

    Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:48 pm
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    I’m a boxer trying out MMA. I’ve beaten the crap out of kickboxers, but I’m coming up against someone who does Brazilian jiu-jitsu, which I don’t. I would like some pointers on how to avoid getting taken with that; I don’t want to get a broken arm or be choked. Obviously I would avoid letting her grab my arms. But what else do you do to counteract this?

    I’ve seen material on it, but it always shows someone taking another person’s arm, leg whatever and doing something with it, but the other party never seems to be providing any resistance. Presumably if you get someone INTO a hold you ought to be able to get OUT of one and there ought to be some way to counteract all these locks and things but I don’t see them. So what do you do besides keeping hands off your arms, etc.? I have no problem as long as I can punch, knee kick whatever; but in a clinch how do you avoid getting jiu jitsued, taken down?

    Also most of these things seem to be predicated on having the other party between your legs. How do you get out of that?

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    Rikki
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:48 pm
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    I know this is going to sound sarcastic but I’m being serious. You counteract this by learning to grapple. Go find a BJJ school or an MMA school (one that actually teaches grappling 🙄 ) and start sucking up the info. And if you don’t want to be choked out or end up with a broken arm…..TAP!

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    Lana
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:21 am

    Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:48 pm
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    That’s fairly obvious; I don’t have the time or inclination now. I figured I would pound my way out, but there are instances where I may be caught.

    When I watch ultimate fighting I hardly ever see any grappling; it is mostly strikes.
    I’m asking simply- apart from keeping arms free what else can you do?
    If you’re down it would seem you’d want to offset any move towards your limbs.

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    KhorneliusPraxx
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:29 am

    Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:25 am
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    Things must have changed…back in the good ol’ days, grappling ruled the UFC.

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    greatlaughter
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:10 am
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    Hi Lana,

    Not sure you are going to get much help here from the grappling population. Most of us take pride in our ability to take down and defeat someone who thinks they can get by without learning everything we’ve learned to survive in MMA – boxing, Muay Thai, wresting, jiu-jitsu. My advice if you don’t have the inclination to learn jiu-jitsu is to not fight anyone who does. Unless you are fighting a person whose got zero take down technique they will likely be able to get you where they want you and keep you there for the submission. To box you have to put your vulerable limbs out there in order to be effective. You leave your leg out for a single, you’re off balance and so focused on punches that a semi-seasoned BJJer can shoot under your punches and slam you. We’ll also get you in close and tie you up standing or pick you up and throw you down. From there it’s just hell if you don’t know what to do. There isn’t any one thing any of us can tell you aside from keep your limbs to yourself, protect your neck and hope for the best. But unless you cling on to your opponent and look to get stood up you’re done on the ground.
    Don’t mean to sound smile, but it’s the truth. I’d be doing you a disservice to lay it out any other way. Ground game usually determines the victor. Good luck!
    -Heather

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    debi
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:23 am
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    Heather has caught a case of the correct !

    My suggestion is to learn at the very least some basic wrestling and ground training “before” you step into the MMA arena.

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    Lana
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:02 pm

    Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:48 pm
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    Thanks. I appreciate the responses. I do know some wrestling, but there you get in and out of holds, not locked up in the same way. I’ve always been led to believe that boxers will generally outdo everyone. If it goes a lot of rounds you’re in trouble. I understand the jiu jitsu bias here though; probably something that works well for women. But if I follow the logic of this then any skinny puppy would be able to submit me. I also maintain that when I watch UFC I see a lot of punching and kicking and not much grappling; even on the ground they are still striking. Further why would you need anything else then if this is so effective? Why don’t they just jiu jitsu? (Jiu Jitsu matches look incredibly dull to me and much of the time you can’t see what’s going on).

    Ok suppose I use the Rocky Marciano technique- that is pound away on my opponents arms until she can hardly lift them. What could you do then?

    Second if we’re on the ground and I simply wrap my arms around your body until the round is over what can you do?

    Third, if I understand the principles here it is based upon leverage; using your opponent’s energy against them. Ok so you get me in one of these impossible-to-get-out-of holds. Suppose I don’t resist, go limp so you can’t leverage me? Then what?

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    Rikki
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:53 pm
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    The UFC is not the be-all-end-all of MMA.

    It is best to be a well rounded fighter before stepping into the cage/ring. That doesn’t mean you have to be a great boxer, wrestler, and grappler; just that you need to be decent at all three. Yes, there are people out there that you could beat without learning to grapple. Yes, some matches don’t even go to the ground. But you will eventually run into someone that has your number.

    But if you don’t want to take the time to learn…..I’ve got some magic beans to sell you. 😀

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    KnockOut2
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:27 pm

    Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:19 pm
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    Location: Louisville, KY
    Lana

    Earlier, you said that the UFC doesn’t seem to have much grappling in it, mostly striking. Later on, you said “Jiu Jitsu matches look incredibly dull to me and much of the time you can’t see what’s going on”. I think that explains why you might think that there isn’t much grappling in UFC matches. If you don’t train in grappling, then it’s difficult to see all of it in the fight. I think the UFC tries to bring in fighters who strike a lot, but there still is a lot of grappling going on in UFC matches.

    The thing is…boxing is a very limited skillset. Mixing it with wrestling really helps for MMA, but that is still a limited skillset. The guys that you see in the UFC that do well with strikes are guys that actually know quite a bit of wrestling and jiu jitsu. The difference is that they apply it differently. They make it their objective to stand. In order to remain standing and not get taken down and submitted, you need to know wrestling and jiu jitsu. The best strikers in MMA train in wrestling and jiu jitsu. Chuck Lidell, Andrei Arlovski, Rich Franklin, Yves Edwards, Jens Pulver, Mirko CroCop. To be at the top level, you must be well rounded, even if your strategy is to remain standing.

    One more thing…you said that you beat the crap out of kickboxers with your boxing. As someone who runs a popular Kickboxing forum, I have the sneaking suspicion that you’re not fighting the best Kickboxers, or you are just fighting in above-waist rules. I haven’t heard any any women out there in the Kickboxing world who are beating the crap out of female Kickboxers with pure boxing. It just doesn’t happen, not at the high level. If you want some real kickboxing matches (Muay Thai or Modified Muay Thai/K1 rules), then message me with your stats and I’ll see who is in your weight class.

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    greatlaughter
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:13 pm
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    One last thought Lana…
    What would you say if I asked you how to fight a boxer without getting punched? It’s kind of the same thing you’re asking here. That’s why we all cross train; in an effort to master many skills. So we can plan the best strategy or just simply be the best well rounded fighet we can be and see how it plays out. Fighting is beautiful. I love it.
    Also, doing BJJ with striking is a whole different ballgame. You don’t have to use it with striking, you can use it on it’s own, but striking allows the opponent to open themselves up for different submissions. Depends on the fighter.

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    Lana
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:05 pm

    Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:48 pm
    Posts: 4
    Ok but no one answered my counters:
    – If I batter your arms so they are so sore you can hardly use them, then what?
    =If when taken down I cling to you arms around your body until the round is over, then what?
    -If you start a hold if I go limp what leverage do you have?

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    Rikki
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:24 pm
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    Quote:
    – If I batter your arms so they are so sore you can hardly use them, then what?

    You’ll probably get taken down before this happens.
    Quote:
    =If when taken down I cling to you arms around your body until the round is over, then what?

    Grapplers train to overcome this so unless you are way bigger than your opponent it’s probably not going to happen. Also, the ref will stand you back up before too long. If you do this every time you get taken down the judges will score in favor of your opponent.
    Quote:
    -If you start a hold if I go limp what leverage do you have?

    They will tap you out easier than they would have if you were fighting it.

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    jamesjudo
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:06 pm

    Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 7:57 am
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    Location: FULLERTON,CA
    if you do not have a Ground Game MMA is not for you stick to stand up fighting or try and train NHB/BJJ for a Ground Game once you have a ground game with your stand up you will be a Good MMA Fighter
    jj 😈

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    satanico
    Post subject: Re: How do you counteract jiu-jitsu?PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:13 pm

    Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:10 pm
    Posts: 144
    If you are a boxer you should check out Art Jimmerson vs Royce Gracie to see boxing vs. jiu-jitsu in MMA. Or boxing vs judo recently had Michael Lerma and Francois Botha fight Yoshihiro Akiyama. They were all at least fringe contenders at one point in boxing who could do nothing with only their boxing in MMA. Giving up a clinch in boxing is nothing, in MMA it is generally sealing your fate.

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    greatlaughter
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:48 pm
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    I didn’t know Botha fought MMA. Something about that guy, I like him. Probably b/c he fought Lennox Lewis. Lennox Koed him – it was beautiful, seriously. But Botha has the guts to move to K-1 and MMA. WOW!

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    KnockOut2
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:55 pm

    Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:19 pm
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    Location: Louisville, KY
    “Third, if I understand the principles here it is based upon leverage; using your opponent’s energy against them. Ok so you get me in one of these impossible-to-get-out-of holds. Suppose I don’t resist, go limp so you can’t leverage me? Then what?”

    That’s not what leverage means. Leverage in grappling refers to “Positional advantage”. It basically means putting yourself in a physical position where you are taking advantage of the laws of physics.

    For example… An armbar is a move where you have multiple groups of muscles (arms, legs, back) being used in combination against an opponent’s bicep muscles. That gives you a physical advantage or positional advantage over your opponent. That is what allows a smaller opponent to beat a bigger, stronger opponent.

    Leverage is not about using your opponent’s strength against them, per se. There are moves in Jiu Jitsu that allow you to use your opponent’s strength against them, but that is not what leverage refers to in grappling.

    I’ll answer your other two questions also…

    “- If I batter your arms so they are so sore you can hardly use them, then what?”

    Nothing wrong with that. That is not a bad tactic. It’s even easier to do with MMA gloves than with boxing gloves. It’s also easier to do with elbows than with punches. It’s similar to what Kickboxers do when they kick a person’s legs. Personally, I think punching the face or body tends to be more effective. I also think that you would have a very difficult time punching someone’s arms if you are on your back with a grappler on top of you.

    “If when taken down I cling to you arms around your body until the round is over, then what?”

    There are fighters that do this in MMA. In many of those fights, the fighter that is just hanging on for dear life ends up taking damage while they are there. They end up losing the decision, if they don’t get knocked out or submitted first. In most MMA promotions, the referee makes them stand back up when there is no activity. In some promotions, the fighter can get a yellow card for stalling, which means that they get a point taken away and they lose a percentage of their fight purse.

    Lana, you’re just not going to be very effective at the top level of MMA unless you are well-rounded to some degree. You can’t get around that. I think it would help you to experience sparring a grappler who is really damn good. A few rounds of feeling like a helpless little baby in their arms will do wonders for your perspective on grappling.

    If you want help finding a good MMA gym in your area, then tell everyone which city you live in. There is also a forum on here for finding a place to train in MMA.

    http://www.fightergirls.com

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    satanico
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:24 pm

    Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:10 pm
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    Botha did it last New Year’s against Akiyama, the Judoka Royce is fighting this New Year’s. K-1 does strange matches on that show. Botha got single legged right away, got mounted and armbarred.

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    scarce
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:33 am
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    lana i do not like your comments

    i pride myself as a grappler

    you need to take this advice

    go to a grappling school and stop whining

    i hope jiu jitsu girl-snaps your arm

    ..and no—grappling is NEVER–EVER–boring!!!!!!!

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    Rox21
    Post subject: PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:54 pm
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    You can’t defeat us.

    🙂 Haha

    get someone to teach you how to sprawl to avoid take downs. Other than that, I’m not telling. 😀 everyone else did a good job..

    by the way scarce, that wasn’t nice at all. 🙁 As someone who had their arm broken in competition, I would never wish that on anyone, EVEN IN JEST!

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    ciscodog
    Post subject: PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:34 am

    Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:55 am
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    you need to learn to sprawl as a defense. As they shoot in to grab a leg or both of your legs, you spread your legs wide and get low. With a little practice and getting your timing down, you will be able to knee them in the facec as they shoot in. Go to blockbuster and rent a UFC fight with Chuck Liddell fighting. He is very adapt at turning the BJJ’s shoot against them. A knee to there face as they shoot in will get them thinking twice. If they shoot in and grab one leg you need to twist yourself out and away from them then let them have it while your standing and they are getting back up to a standing position. Once again timing is everything. Ask a training partner to shoot in at a slow or crawl speed, then a little faster, while going after both legs and/or a single leg. Nick Diaz is a very good example of getting out of a single leg shoot, I recommend watching one of his fights also. Hope this helps you on short notice. Remember the body goes where the head goes so if you push their head to the canvas as they shoot in there body will follow.

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    KnockOut2
    Post subject: PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:45 pm

    Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:19 pm
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    I dunno…I think the sprawl is a bit overplayed for takedown defense. I think the best anti-takedown guys are really good at upper body tie-ups and then scrambling and getting back to their feet when there is a takedown attempt that is 90%-100% successful. They usually get taken down from time to time, but they don’t tend to stay there.

    Take chuck for instance. Randy’s comments about chuck after their first fight included that Chuck was incredibly difficult to keep down. Randy took him down, but Chuck popped back up a few times.

    A lot of fighters will just rely on sprawling alone. I think it is also important to do more wrestling when in a sprawl. There are more options from there. Whizzer, quarter nelson, head snap, crossface, change angles, ankle pick, fight for hand control, etc. A lot of people that learn takedown defense for MMA just stick to plain vanilla sprawls, but they usually get taken down anyway against a good wrestler.

    Watch how Randy responds to Tito’s initial attempt at a take down during the first 2 minutes of their fight. He doesn’t just do a sprawl, even though Tito is going for his legs. In fact, Couture is up against the fence at the time of the takedown attempt.

    There is a technique to using the fence to stand up. Not all fighters are good at that. They hand control and underhook, move from their back sitting, and then push off the fence to standing. Chuck, for example, is really good at doing this.

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    Charlie78
    Post subject: Yes!PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:54 pm

    Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:05 am
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    Rikki wrote:
    The UFC is not the be-all-end-all of MMA.

    I could not agree with you more.

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    JKDChick
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:40 am

    Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:37 am
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    Does anyone else find it true that someone just knowing SOMETHING, even a small thing like “sprawl” or “keep base”, really makes it hard to get take downs?

    Half my tournament fights go to the ground because I get bored standing up and want to try something.

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    MNkkgMMA
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:56 pm
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    the best way to counteract ju-jitsu is to learn it. Be well rounded. You can have a specialty, or a favorite style, but be well aware of every one elses styles as well. Look at Chuck Liddell, he has the best standup in the UFC, but hardley anyone remembers that he has a wrestling background. You can never be too prepared. Good luck.

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