Man vs Woman MMA Fight on 10 October

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    Chad Moechnig
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    Executioner
    Post subject: Man vs Woman MMA Fight on 10 OctoberPostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:37 am

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    As you all have heard, Irma Verhoeff will fight against a Muay Thai Boxer Marc Gefferie (weights 10lgs less) on MMA rules on Hot2Handle Event in Rotterdam, Netherlands.
    What do you think, despite if you are against this fight or supporting this fight.
    Who will win?
    The guy is a thaiboxer not well known, but he is B Class and his track record is 10-2 and believe me ofcourse he did some MMA training to prepare for this match.

    What do you all think?

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    Zoe
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:22 am

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    Sounds pretty lame to me. The guy is probably a wimp. Most Europeans are except for Van Damme.

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    Alex
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:43 am

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    I guess this will make her far more known in the world.

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:54 am

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    Zoe wrote:
    Sounds pretty lame to me. The guy is probably a wimp. Most Europeans are except for Van Damme.

    ??? 😯
    Hahaha Zoe, you must be joking…
    Never heard of Allistair Overeem,Gilbert Yvel,Rodney Faverus,Bas Rutten,Sem Schilt?

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:58 am

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    Zoe wrote:
    Sounds pretty lame to me. The guy is probably a wimp.

    Trust me, that guy isn’t a wimp!
    If he is a wimp maybe you can square of against you! 😉

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    Alex
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:18 am

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    Dude, the outcome of this match is known. She will win. The guy has been told to lose and he knows that. There`s nothing real about it.

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    Zoe
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:53 pm

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    Right Alex. This whole thing is stupid. I’d take either one on. Europeans are real sissies.

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:24 pm

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    Alex wrote:
    Dude, the outcome of this match is known. She will win. The guy has been told to lose and he knows that. There`s nothing real about it.

    We’ll see if it’s a “worked” match…..
    Wanna place a bet?
    I will post the details on this forum after the 10th of October.

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:26 pm

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    Zoe wrote:
    Right Alex. This whole thing is stupid. I’d take either one on. Europeans are real sissies.

    Are you just a flamer, or do you have all the days of the week a “monthly period”? 8)

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    gretamobetta
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:43 pm
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    Oh come on! Who here would not love to see her beat a guys ass? I would buy a ticket for sure! 😛
    Kick his ass Irma!!!!!

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    Alex
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:44 pm

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    I wasn’t sure what to make of this at first. But I cannot exclude the possibility that she is more skilled.

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:49 am

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    Alex wrote:
    I wasn’t sure what to make of this at first. But I cannot exclude the possibility that she is more skilled.

    Maybe, but mainly on the ground, standing up she will have a tough time cause he is a thaiboxer form origin.

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    Mook
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:14 am

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    This is some kind of weird Dutch thing. Lucia Rijker is one of the toughest women in the world. She tried that and lost to a martial arts guy. Women can’t fight guys.

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:59 am

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    Mook wrote:
    This is some kind of weird Dutch thing. Lucia Rijker is one of the toughest women in the world. She tried that and lost to a martial arts guy. Women can’t fight guys.

    We dutch are sometimes weird!! hahaha
    But the majority of the dutch fans are not possitive about this fight that’s for sure!
    I’m a laid back person, I’ve got no problem with it, I just place the bet on the guy!

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    Anystylist
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:22 am

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    Executioner,

    In your original post, You said that they guy weighed “10lgs” less. Now do you mean 10 pounds (lbs), or 10 kilograms (kgs)–which equates to 22 pounds?

    Given that Verhoeff goes about 170lbs, 10 pounds would put the dude at 160, which is not a critical difference. But 22 pounds puts the guy at 148, which is a significant (but not insurmountable) difference, especially on the ground. Put it this way, the only time you’d see a sanctioned fight between two guys 22 pounds apart is if they were both in an unlimited heavyweight division.

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:48 pm

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    Anystylist wrote:
    Executioner,

    In your original post, You said that they guy weighed “10lgs” less. Now do you mean 10 pounds (lbs), or 10 kilograms (kgs)–which equates to 22 pounds?

    Given that Verhoeff goes about 170lbs, 10 pounds would put the dude at 160, which is not a critical difference. But 22 pounds puts the guy at 148, which is a significant (but not insurmountable) difference, especially on the ground. Put it this way, the only time you’d see a sanctioned fight between two guys 22 pounds apart is if they were both in an unlimited heavyweight division.

    10kg=22lbs, that is correct! 😉
    Yes on the ground he will have a disadvantage!
    But he is thaiboxer, so he will try to let in a standing up fight, Verhoeff is also from origin a thaiboxer.
    and ofcourse he trained the last months on his groundskill, that’s for sure..

    But what do you think?
    Who are you voting?

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    marloes
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:28 am

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    Dear “Executioner”,

    Waarom heb ik toch het idee dat je Nederlands bent?

    Marc Gefferie is 10 kg lighter than Irma. And believe me it isn’t a work, because I’m training with him. And believe me this fight will be very, very, very hard for Irma.
    I don’t like the idea that a man fights a women, unless the women is the best in the world without any serious competition. I believe that the women should take a man of her own weightclass, not a man who is 10 kg lighter. Because then you are really better than the opposite smile (how do you write that correctly?). But I also know that it is Irma’s dream to fight a man on a big show. It’s only a pitty for her that she will lose…hard.

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:34 am

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    marloes wrote:
    Dear “Executioner”,

    Waarom heb ik toch het idee dat je Nederlands bent?

    Ja ik ben nederlands! 8)

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    scarce
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:21 pm
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    …hey marloes……how about an autograph/i have been waiting in line for a while now….i look like rip van winkle////marloes????marloes???? are you there?????

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    Anystylist
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:52 pm

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    Executioner, thanks for the feedback.

    As to my views, I’ve seen neither of them. Still, I’ll go with Gefferie based on the following:

    When women fight ranked guys (i.e. not club fighters), they’ve lost. Exhibit A is Lucia Rijker, and apparently there was some boxing or MT match in Mexico where a woman got pounded. When women win, they’re top fighters going against club guys at best (see my Sunshine Fettkether post elsewhere).

    Gefferies is apparently training hard and has had enough time to get the basics down. Plus, MT guys are used to clinching and leg sweeps, so they’re not starting from scratch. And striking on the ground makes grapplers modify their tactics.

    I’d be more confident if I knew their respective ages. But if Gefferie is younger than Verhoeff, that’s another reason to favor the guy (Verhoeff ain’t Bernard Hopkins, of that I’m sure).

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    Anystylist
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:57 pm

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    Marloes, good point. Anything over a 10% differential is basically a handicap at the competitive level.

    Incidentally, I read somewhere that in the U.S. the average guy is 28 pounds heavier than the average woman. So if you actually had a fight between the “average man” and the “average woman”, where each gender’s “average” is fairly represented, you’d have to let the guy have a weight advantage!

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    scarce
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:20 pm
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    ..if marloes is training with the guy/ it is lights out for irma/. muay thai is great stand up/.and if marloes is teaching him the basics. of sprawling and such. it is over for irma/. if she tries to take him down/ all he needs is a basic sprawl to maintain/ and then its elbows and knees to the blackout/..lights out irma/..marloes no like the irma girl/SCARCE CHICAGO/I IS WHAT I IS /THAT IS MY BIZ/.

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:02 am

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    Anystylist wrote:
    Executioner, thanks for the feedback.

    As to my views, I’ve seen neither of them. Still, I’ll go with Gefferie based on the following:

    I’d be more confident if I knew their respective ages. But if Gefferie is younger than Verhoeff, that’s another reason to favor the guy (Verhoeff ain’t Bernard Hopkins, of that I’m sure).

    I think Marc is around 25 years (I’m not sure) and Irma Verhoeff is around 38 years.

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    marloes
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:55 am

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    Anystylist wrote:
    Marloes, good point. Anything over a 10% differential is basically a handicap at the competitive level.

    Incidentally, I read somewhere that in the U.S. the average guy is 28 pounds heavier than the average woman. So if you actually had a fight between the “average man” and the “average woman”, where each gender’s “average” is fairly represented, you’d have to let the guy have a weight advantage!

    No idea if I understood the above. This is what I think you mean.
    If the average weight is 80 kg and you are 60 kg. Do you have to fight a opponent (of the same smile) who is 80 kg because that’s average???

    If a woman want’s to fight a guy because she thinks that women and man are equal skilled, she’ll have to take a guy of her own weight. That’s logic.
    What I’m trying to say is, is that women and man aren’t equall at all. I’m not a concervative thinker, I do fight man too. But not on a big show, while there a enough skilled women in the world to face. The 10th we ‘ll see….

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:50 am

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    Heb je nog mijn berichtjje via forum gezien?

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    Anystylist
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:19 am

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    Executioner, you’re a fount of knowledge. Even if Verhoeff were 28, 10 years is a lot. Only exceptional professional athletes are effective into their late 30s (unless you’re talking about non-aerobic sports like golf).

    Marloes, that’s not really what I meant, but let’s forget about it. I agree that if you want to isolate athletic superiority, you have to eliminate other factors such as weight. Or even age.

    As the fight stands, Verhoeff’s weight advantage may neutralize Gefferies’s youth advantage. But the longer the fight goes, the more it favors the dude.

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:55 am

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    Anystylist wrote:
    Executioner, you’re a fount of knowledge.

    Well not everything in MMA, but on this match I did my homework! 8)

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    scarce
    Post subject: PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:53 pm
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    ..marloes loves spam and eggs///yes….go marloes//

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:12 am

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    There was today a presscoonference from H2H, the weight of the two fighters are: Irma at 168 lbs and Marc at 145 lbs.

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:50 am

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    Some pictures of Pressconference, the other two woman are Celebs, so on this H2H Show will be also three Celebrity Boxing Matches, to create more acceptance to the dutch media about fightingsports in MMA/Muay Thai especially.
    Here some pictures of the weigh in.

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    danc
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:08 pm

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    I don’t see this as a “battle of the smile”; it’s a battle between two fighters.

    They represent ONLY themselves-not the entire world population of men and women. So regardless of who wins, it proves nothing, except which of these two people was the more effective, under the totality of the circumstances, (and existing handicap) on that particular night.

    In fact, that is all ANY fight “proves” Simply who was better on the night. I don’t think either fighter owes anyone an explanation or justification of their decision to fight whomever they wish whenever they wish-so long as both parties are aware of what they are getting in to.

    Its hard to predict the outcome of a male vs female fight, where there is a handicap factor, because it depends on how much of a handicap the woman is given to compensate for the man’s greater muscularity, longer arms, quicker reaction times and natural aggression due to more testosterone, etc.
    Where there is no handicap the woman has no chance whatever. So, to be “fair” (whatever that means)
    there must be a substantial handicap. Most sensible people immediately recognize that. It seems to me a “fair “ fight is one where for whatever reasons,
    The outcome is not certain. If the outcome is almost certain, its a mismatch regardless of the age, smile, or experience of the fighters

    Studies in research Quarterly ,a scholarly journal of physical education generally find that men are 30% stronger than women in muscular strength, reaction time, etc. Thus, a 30 pound weight advantage, or a 30% age advantage usually makes for a fairly even fight, IF the other huge factor of training and experience is not too far out of balance.

    But that’s not always the case. There just haven’t been enough of these kinds of fights to have enough data to make good predictions-OR establish fair handicaps.

    Thus, the chance of a dangerous mismatch in the man’s favor is always there, and presents a real danger to the woman. That’s why I disapprove.

    I do not like to see women fight men, but they have a right to fight whomever they choose, and not be disrespected or insulted for their decision to fight a particular opponent-unless its an obvious and deliberate mismatch.

    Lets also remember that sometimes its hard for women to find opponents, so they can’t be too choosy if an opportunity like this comes along.

    I think it harsh to suggest that Gefferies will be a “wimp” if he loses to someone who outweighs him 20 pounds especially with Irma’;s experience.

    I also don’t think Bob Schreiber would let Irma fight if he thought she didn’t have a decent chance of winning

    For more on this topic see

    dan

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 5:26 am

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    Rules Meeting!

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    fight4you
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:19 am

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    looks like pics from a new series on Fox, “Geeks and Cons”

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:31 pm

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    I’ve just heard that Irma and Marc fought a draw, maybe later some more details about the match.

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    danc
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:30 pm

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    As boring as a draw is, in this case, I am actually relieved.

    becausue that takes away some of the emotional distress that this fight was causing for a lot of people..

    Now, no one can insult marc or call him a wimp. And no one can take away from Irma’s performance by saying she deliberately chose some anemic chump to get a cheap win. Next time there isa fight like this, I hope the fans can remain tactiurn abnd not make it into much more than it is.

    its amazing to witness all the vituperative hysteria which was generated by this fight between two decent sincere people who just wanted to fight.

    I really hope the promoters of 2hot2 handle made some money. I think the novelty celebrity fights and Irma Vs Marc was a way to bolster some sagging attendance records of late.

    dan

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    fight4you
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 5:00 pm

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    problem is – no matter what the skills or motivations of the participants, such events are always a geek show. The problem with that comes from the crowd and the promoters that attract them.

    i think in an age of domestic abuse, date rape and general foul male behavior – having a man go full out against any woman is just too politically hot.

    women will get much more general public respect and not resemble some fetish promotional event- if they train against men, if they want, and fight against women.

    just an opinion

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    danc
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 5:41 pm

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    I understand where you are coming from, and you are of course,quite correct that such a fight will inevitably attract a few people who have strange fetishes, and who are not interested in the fight for the reasons that most of us would be watching.

    Unfortunately, its a sad fact of life that even women vs women fights will inevitably attract a few spectators who watch for reasons that most of us would find strange-if not disgusting. In fact if yu mistype the fightergirls url
    as fightergirl.com (singular) youare led to an “adult” site. Somene thinks fighting women is “adult” entertainment. Thats HIS problem-not ours

    We even had a guy on womenkickboxing.com’s board post something about kissing the womens feet, I belive he said..In any event, its clear he was obssesed with a womans body part, rather than the woman herself. A bodypart that healthy people just don’t associate with smile.

    Maybe I am naive, but that was definitely a new one on me. But, when I checked out the url he left for his website, I found that there is a whole subculture of obviously maladfjusted little men who actually get their thrills looking at womens feet. I found it funny at first… then after thinking about it…its actually, rather sad, Because these poor little men are obviously emotionally crippled and hopelessly fixated and hence, unable to enjoy healthy mature relatinships with the opposite smile. They will will probaly never know the joy of having a healthy marriage otr relationship, or a family and children

    They are simply sad little men who really deserve pity rather than our anger.

    Now, while I can’t honestly say my gag reflex is as insensitive as it should be, , I do try not to let idiots, or freaks upset me, ruin my day, or unduly influence my sporting activities and decisions.

    And neither should Irma Verhoeff and Marc Gefferis. I think that would be an unfair burden to place upon them.

    If we are to be responsible for the neurotic responses of fetishists to harmless sporting activites, then what should women fighters do?? Wear boots when they fight, just in case one of these sad liitle men is at ringside, taking strange delight from looking at hir feet?

    Should they wear diving flippers when they go to the beach, in case one of these bizarre characters is lurking per chance?

    I think you would agree women have no obligation to let freaks keep them from enjoying life-or even allowing themselves, or their recreational activities to be inconvenienced by them.

    I recently heard the word “spectacle” to describe the event. By someoine who wasnt even there. Unfortunatel, by using that pejorative term, we are necessarily implying that the fighters participating in the event (and not just a few crazy spectators) are doing something ethically wrong-or at least something very unseemly or vulgar.

    And thats unfair and harsh, (in my humble opinion) to both Irma Verhoeff and Marc Gefferies.

    I dont think this fight

    (A) violated anyone’s rights;

    or

    (B) was immoral

    or

    (C) hurt our sport or harmed anyone.

    For those who were was offended, I believe its totally their issue to work out through counseling, or maybe even rantingand insulting the fighters on bulletin boards if they have no health insurance to pay fora counselor.

    NOW…I already made it clear that I dont think its wise for women to take fights with men due to the danger of a bad mismatch.

    But that is the right of the man and the woman, and their managers and the promoter to decide. And the fight fans can choose to watch it, or ignore it..

    If Irma found it to be a challenge,fine. I don’t think she or Gefferies owe us an explanation, or a justification for their decision to fight each other.

    These mixed contests will continue to occur from time to time, and I am glad its not often. But when they do… we at http://www.womenkickboxing.com will report them and the results in a low key, matter of fact, and hopefully digified way; that neither ignores them, nor magnifies them into more than what they are. Which is basically -a novelty event or change of routine- not totally unlike like a celebrity fight.
    And I just hope people in the martial Arts, MMA, and kickboxing community will have the maturity and inner sense of security and self esteem to NOT feel vicariously threatened, angry, or offended.

    its really not a big deal- except for the following individuals:

    a few sad little men; A few ultra macho guys who are overcompensating; and for a few understandably anxious women fighters who are afraid that somehow their feminine dignity will be put at risk, by the actions of others.

    Our sport has, and will continue, to survive mismatches, no contests, occasional bad sportsmanship, ring injuries, no shows, lack of money, poor press coverage. and YES, even an occassional fight between a male and a female fighter.

    Yours for equanimity, and a dash of perspective,

    danc

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    Anystylist
    Post subject: Behavior matters. Motives don’t. Have more mixed fights.PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:03 am

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    Here’s my bottom line:

    Motives don’t matter. Whether a man (or woman) follows mixed gender fighting because of some erotic issue, or because of ego protection, or for any other reason is immaterial. His dollar buys the same amount as your dollar, and, since we presumably live in the land of the First Amendment, his opinions have the same right to be heard as your opinions.

    What matters is behavior. What’s the difference between fighting a guy who just wants to fight and fighting a guy with an erotic agenda, but who keeps it to himself? None. Fighting a macho guy with something to prove, but who stays within the rules, won’t be any different than fighting a very aggressive fighter with no agenda.

    If we want to deflate the controversy and emotion surrounding mixed gender fights, we should want to see more of them. As I’ve stated elsewhere, only by having a statistically significant number of fights can we accurately gauge what advantage the Y chromosome actually confers on average.

    Finally, considering that MMA itself is not universally accepted by society, we ought not to be too judgmental about others. Take allies where you can get them.

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    fight4you
    Post subject: PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:45 am

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    well i wasn’t talking about the inner needs of the fighters – i was commenting on the crowd.

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    CaptainBad
    Post subject: PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:29 pm

    Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:19 am
    Posts: 23
    Location: Europe
    Yeah, but think again Fight4You. You seem to have jumped on a popular bandwagon without thinking why you’re there.

    Why do you care about the crowd? That’s exactly what the point being made was about.

    It’s become very popular in the English-speaking media over the last 20 years to depict men as monsters. Men are wife-beaters, rapists, paedophiles and fare-dodgers. This is sensational stuff: it sells the papers and gets the TV ratings. Unfortunately, the emotional reaction that this draws blinds a lot of people.

    I’ve resisted joining this site since its conception because I take no interest in BJJ. But I do make the occasional look-in for no reason other than that Debi is a nice looking chick. She has a smile appeal that she is fully aware will draw the attention of men who – although they might not be wife-beaters, rapists or paedophiles – find women explosively attractive because they have fighting skill. (Without giving too much away, I’m old enough to remember the late 90’s.)

    Moralising about this Irma/Marc fight is hypocritical. Either women live their lives on an equal basis to men (what feminists are claiming to be fighting for) or we all accept that women cannot reach men’s heights – in anything. But we’ll never know if we are chivalrously shielding women from the challenges and problems that men have had to face since life began.

    It all depends on which side of the fence you’re sitting. Time to think again?

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:32 pm

    Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:48 pm
    Posts: 444
    Location: Netherlands
    Well Danc and Anystylist,

    Great analyse!
    I can agree with those arguments perfectly.

    Here some pictures of the match.

    More Hot2Handle pictures can be found here

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    fight4you
    Post subject: PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:59 pm

    Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:03 pm
    Posts: 429
    nope. my thoughts are fine

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    fight4you
    Post subject: PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:30 pm

    Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:03 pm
    Posts: 429
    LOL, I’m not going for that bait again. Peace out, Dude.

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    Mark Grassman
    Post subject: PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:59 pm
    Fightergirls elite poster

    Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:18 pm
    Posts: 1011
    Location: Evansville, Indiana USA
    I first saw the 2H2H results on the Full Contact Fighter Database, but since it didn’t list the Irma Verhoef fight I thought it never took place. 😕

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    Executioner
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:30 pm

    Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:48 pm
    Posts: 444
    Location: Netherlands
    Here are the highlights ot the match!

    And check out the entrances! hehehe 8)

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    Post subject: results from Bob & IrmaPostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:23 am
    Online
    Fightergirls elite poster

    Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:16 am
    Posts: 671
    Location: Laguna Hills, CA
    Hello Debby,

    Our complements about your site we think it is fantastic!
    We want to tell you a big story about The M.M.A. There was a big event in holland last sunday called 2 Hot 2 Handle(2h2h) on this event fought Irma “The Gladiatrix” Verhoeff from Team Schreiber from holland against a man!!!! His name is Marc Gefferie also a dutch fighter. Marcs list is 27
    Muay Thai and 2 m.m.a matches. It was a Vale Tudo match 2 rounds of 5
    minutes. The first round was for sure for Irma cause she was very strong
    on the ground.The 2th round fought Marc his way back in a stand fight, but he could’nt handle Irmas strong take downs. We think that irma won the match for sure but the judges thought it was a draw. For our team a big dissapointment but if you look at it the other way she made a very big
    statement in the M.M.A world. Irma showed the world that she was not
    afraid to fight a man and proved she was a worth opponent. Debby,
    tommorrow i’ll send you some pictures of this spectacular fight!!
    Greetings and respect,
    Bob Schreiber and Irma Verhoeff.

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