Testing Del’s hypothesis…

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    Chad Moechnig
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    Anystylist
    Post subject: Testing Del’s hypothesis…PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:03 am

    Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:47 pm
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    Location: Northeast
    …from the ‘How Would They Do’ thread.

    The issue: women on this board don’t want to discuss their ‘extracurricular’ fights, be they streetfights, school fights, or any fight not conducted for sporting purposes in a sporting venue under sporting rules.

    So, let me ask the question directly: how many serious (in anger), one-on-one, unarmed fights were you in (a) from the age of 12 until 18? and (b) as an adult? Bonus points for tallying up your W-L and specifying when you started training in MA.

    And if this is too sensitive a subject, why is it too sensitive?

    BTW, if you can make an educated guess at how many such fights the average (median) 30yo American woman has had, feel free to estimate away.

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    Rikki
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:40 am
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    I have only been in one “street” fight. I was 16. I guess I won…she only hit me once before the teachers broke it up. I didn’t start training until I was 19.

    Out of all the women I know over the age of 18, only one of them has been in a fight after high school. I would tend to think that that is the “norm”.

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    Rox21
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:54 am
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    I honestly thought women didn’t street fight and only guys did that. :X I’ve never done anything. *halo*

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    greatlaughter
    Post subject: PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:01 pm
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    Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:15 pm
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    i once gave a rather large group of racist skinheads a tounge lashing at a protest. it was me against about—200 idiots. but luckily the cops came before anyone got hurt. however, next day i had barbed wire wrapped around my tires. AT MY HOUSE! freaks.

    no real serious street fights. when you look as tough as i do, people tend to leave you alone.

    hahahahahah – that’s such a joke.

    signed,

    dimples

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    dl_angel
    Post subject: PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:56 pm

    Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:49 pm
    Posts: 150
    Location: Austin, Texas
    No street fights- ever… never hit anyone out of anger except my brother (typical sibling stuff)… I’m 24, just started training in MT about 4 months ago and I hope to be fighting within a few months.

    Never known a woman who has mentioned getting in a street fight since adulthood. Honestly, I can only think of one time EVER that might have led to a fight between me and another girl. I can’t think of too many things that I’d be passionate enough about to actually hit someone (with the exception of the sport itself). In that situation, I thought I might have to defend myself.

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    Anystylist
    Post subject: Thanks for your responses…PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:23 pm

    Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:47 pm
    Posts: 67
    Location: Northeast
    While 3 is a small sample, it’s at least unanimous–you ladies are way too polite for the tastes of the vicarious thrill-seeking public.

    However, your responses do not necessarily disprove the RickA./Del hypothesis. It could be that the streetfighters/undergrounders here just don’t want to respond, for whatever reason.

    An alternative explanation is that the streetfighters are too undisciplined to take it to the gym/ring. Conversely, maybe y’all are so exhausted after your training and matches that you have no major aggression remaining to be unleashed on the general public. 😉

    Either way, I am beginning to think that a conclusive answer to this question requires active, on-the-ground research. At a minimum, I would say that answers to the question posed will not come from this board, nor any other public forum on the internet.

    Of course, if you disagree, please tell me so, and why. But if not, I’ll be on to the next topic shortly.

    Thanks again for your responses.

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    rick_alexio
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:18 am

    Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:00 am
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    Location: Southern Cali/Las Vegas
    Ah, missed your new connection thread, analyst…but this actually illustrates the earlier point even further.

    Statistically, tons of girls fight up through college and into their 20’s and even 30’s…so it merely sounds like a few of the girls here just happened to *not* grow up around those circles or get involved in those types of cliques or gangs.

    Therefore, if a number of the girls getting involved now in MMA don’t even have any previous fight experience that clearly illustrates how deep the talent pool out there actually is.

    But as Del mentioned earlier, there are also a number of girls who do have some type of previous fight history but for political or other reasons just won’t feel like admitting to it here.

    RA

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    KnockOut2
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:50 am

    Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:19 pm
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    Location: Louisville, KY
    “Statistically, tons of girls fight up through college and into their 20’s and even 30’s”

    Where do you read those statistics?

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    rick_alexio
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:22 am

    Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:00 am
    Posts: 122
    Location: Southern Cali/Las Vegas
    Well, I don’t really need to read statistics but I’m sure there’s also plenty available…

    I’ve witnessed more than enough myself over the years…from back in school to bouncing, club promotion, and concert security throughout LA and Orange County, Manhattan Beach, Hollywood/Sunset Strip, East Side, South Central, LBC, Westwood/UCLA and various other areas…

    Right there alone you have a wide cross-section of various demographics…from as upscale area college girls as it gets, to Beverly Hills prissy rich girls, to the average tough homegirls from the hood. And we’re talking college age or up getting into clubs(barring the occasional fake Id’s)

    Trust me, tons of girls fight…

    RA

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    Rikki
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:08 pm
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    Location: Lexington, KY
    Rick,

    How many female fights do you think you saw? How many women of that age lived in the area? Do you think there were enough to make up a large percentage of the population?

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    rick_alexio
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:06 pm

    Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:00 am
    Posts: 122
    Location: Southern Cali/Las Vegas
    Rikki,

    Over the years I have seen many many female fights..although, you’re right, some areas or clubs do significantly have more than others. At some clubs it’s rare to even have a guy fight while others it was not uncommon to have 3 or more girl fights in one night.And we’re only talking about inside clubs here not fights that go down outside and house parties, etc…

    I would say maybe 1 in 10 girls (young women) are “fighter types” who’ve been in some fights through grade/HS and at least several after…so for them the “norm” would be fighting, while for the other 9 it wouldn’t….but, when you multiply that out even 100,000 girls that’s potentially 10,000 girls who fight….

    As an example,..it’s a typical Saturday night and I would guess there will be at least 1000 female fights throughout LA County tonight alone, and that’s a conservative estimate…consider that’s only 1 night in 1 County in 1 State…

    It’s actually surprising how many there are really. Most folks just don’t realize it because it’s one of those things you don’t usually see or hear about unless you’re in areas where it happens a lot.

    RA

    .

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    Rikki
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:15 pm
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    The problem is, while there might be some talent there, most of them need a reason to fight. And typically those reasons are men, name calling, or back stabbing….not fun, exercise, and self defense.

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    rick_alexio
    Post subject: PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:46 pm

    Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:00 am
    Posts: 122
    Location: Southern Cali/Las Vegas
    Right, but again, isn’t that where recruitment into MMA training/fighting is supposed to come in? It’s girls like this which make up the ideal “feeder system” for the future of the sport.

    It’s the classic scenario of taking wayward street toughs and steering them towards legit training and sport. That’s the typical fighter story which draws people in and attracts young fighters who need a direction…hell, they make movies about those scenarios and people fill the theatres.

    And again, there are often more valid/noble reasons for fighting than for money or sport …in addition, many times these girls are fighting simply because they like to fight and *do* think it’s fun. I had regulars at clubs who I knew (and told me) they were just looking for someone to fight as soon as they walked in…

    RA

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    KnockOut2
    Post subject: PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:50 am

    Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:19 pm
    Posts: 439
    Location: Louisville, KY
    “it’s a typical Saturday night and I would guess there will be at least 1000 female fights throughout LA County tonight alone, and that’s a conservative estimate…consider that’s only 1 night in 1 County in 1 State… ”

    WHAT?!?!?!?!!
    1000 fights of ANY gender in one night in ONE county is ridiculous.

    That is 1000 fights. That means 2000 participants. 2000 people (women, in this example) street fighting in ONE NIGHT in ONE COUNTY.

    What?!?!?!?!

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    rick_alexio
    Post subject: PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:30 am

    Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:00 am
    Posts: 122
    Location: Southern Cali/Las Vegas
    lol Not at all…

    Consider there are probably 1000 colleges and schools in LA County, maybe 4 or 5 times that many clubs and bars, not to mention how many house parties in every neighborhood throughout the county on a given Sat night…

    Also consider that only a small percentage of those fights will even attract police attention or ever get reported. Clubs and bar in particular do not like a lot of police involvement (bad for business) and will only call them if it’s absolutely necessary Most of the time fights are just broken up or someone gets booted.

    So even just between clubs, bars, house parties and schools through all hours of a given Sat (let alone all other places where fight go down)…1000 fights is conservative…

    RA

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    scarce
    Post subject: PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:48 pm
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    Rikki
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:18 pm
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    Location: Lexington, KY
    That just seems like an awful lot of fights to me. I doubt that there’s that many fights (male and female) in Lexington in a month!!

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    rick_alexio
    Post subject: PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:05 pm

    Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:00 am
    Posts: 122
    Location: Southern Cali/Las Vegas
    Well, Lexington is not that small but it’s only one city (not a whole county full of cities) so you may be right…I’m not familiar with how many clubs and house parties there might be in that area. But again, it’s one of those things where if you think there could be 1000 there’s likely double that many or more…

    Keep in mind there are over 10 million people in LA County alone, so there could easily be even way more than my original estimate…and, I wasn’t even including things like domestic violence related fights. Tons of sisters fight each other all the time, as well as mothers, aunts, cousins, etc…this is quite common amongst Latino, blacks, whites and every other ethnicity from the SF Valley throughout every hood and burrough..and we’re talking similar numbers with Orange, San Diego, Riverside, San Bernardino, and various other counties..and that’s only Southern Cali.
    When you start adding up every county in the state, country, and throughout the entire world on any given day, those kinds of numbers start to become mind-boggling…

    RA

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    dude
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:40 pm

    Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:35 pm
    Posts: 66
    KnockOut2 wrote:
    “Statistically, tons of girls fight up through college and into their 20’s and even 30’s”

    Where do you read those statistics?

    Well, statistics will vary by region, etc. For example, the US Government collects those stats for HS-age girls, Einstein. You can read them here… These statistics do exist… they are not made up:

     

    Indicator 5, page 39

    M > F

    Lower HS grades > Higher HS grades

    25% of F report having been in fight in preceding 12 months

    American Indians most likely to get in fights (24%) followed by
    Blacks & Hispanics, then Asians, then Whites (10%)

    Stats from NZ:

    Figures reflect growing violence in girls

    By Lea Stewart
    One in five people arrested for violent offences in Dunedin this
    year has been female, police said yesterday after recent violence in
    the city.

    Police have apprehended 698 people in Dunedin this year for violent
    offending – 130 (19%) were females.

    Almost half of the females arrested were aged under 20. In contrast,
    a third of male offenders fell into that category.

    Groups of girls have come to the attention of Dunedin police twice
    in the past five days.

    On Friday night, an intoxicated teenage girl was allegedly assaulted
    by two other females in George St. On Tuesday afternoon, two girls,
    aged 14 and 15, were charged with assaulting police after an unruly
    scuffle with up to four officers in the Octagon. Police were called
    to the scene after reports a group of intoxicated girls was smashing
    bottles.

    Inspector Don Boyd said times had changed since he joined the force.

    “Thirty years ago, when I joined the police, it was unheard of to
    see a woman involved in a fight. It just didn’t happen. I’ve never
    arrested a woman for an assault.

    “But society has changed and females involved in violence is part of
    that change,” Insp Boyd said.

    “Women are showing in the statistics, but men are still the main
    offenders for these type of offences.”

    Youthworks spokesman Warren, who asked for his surname not be
    printed, believed the figures were under-representative of how many
    violent women there were in the community.

    Warren has worked with youth for the past 15 years.

    “We see a lot of domestics in the court where it’s male assaults
    female. In a great deal of those cases, the woman has actually been
    the aggressor first. The male has retaliated and he’s got pinged for
    it,” he said.

    He also believed girls were becoming involved in fights and violence
    because “they can”.

    “Things have changed. Girls are walking around in these big groups.
    They’re getting drunk, they egg each other on and they think they’re
    bulletproof – just like guys.”

    He was aware of one case where a 15-year-old girl viciously
    assaulted a younger boy she believed was teasing her younger brother.

    “A few years ago, that wouldn’t have happened. Society says it’s OK,
    and a lack of discipline doesn’t help.”

    Thursday, 2-September 2004

     

    From :
    Sunday, May 23, 2004 – 12:00 AM |

    Fists and fingernails: More girls are turning to fighting to settle
    disputes

    Kathleen Parrish THE MORNING CALL

    ALLENTOWN, Pa. — The dark-haired teen was standing in front of
    Allentown’s South Mountain Middle School one morning last spring
    when another girl came up behind her, grabbed her ponytail and
    yanked her to her knees. After dragging her backward across the
    asphalt and tearing her jeans, the attacker then punched the 14-year-
    old six times in the face, bloodying her nose and lips.

    “She didn’t know my daughter,” said the girl’s mother. “It was a
    problem she was having with one of my daughter’s friends. She said
    she grabbed her because she was the closest one.”

    The eighth-grade attacker was sentenced to probation and community
    service in juvenile court, but the story is not unique. In schools
    across the country, girls are letting their fists and painted
    fingernails do the talking for the smallest of slights. Once
    considered the preferred method for settling scores by rough and
    tumble boys, physical fights have crossed the gender line.

    “By fifth and sixth grades it’s no longer put-downs and yelling,”
    said Dr. Herb Mandell, national medical director for KidsPeace, a
    mental health treatment center for children and teens in Orefield,
    Pa. “We’re seeing more and more overt physical confrontation among
    girls. It can get pretty nasty.”

    Consider: One in four high school girls in the nation reported they
    had sparred at least once during a one-year period, according to the
    latest statistics, and arrests of teen girls for assault are off the
    charts. The same can’t be said for boys, who posted a decrease in
    aggravated assault arrests.

    It’s not only happening in the inner city. The problem has bled into
    the suburbs where girls as young as 8 are getting into hallway
    brawls.

    Contributing factors
    Experts point to the rise in violent media images of gun-blazing,
    karate-chopping females as one reason for more physicality among
    girls. Movies such as “Kill Bill” and television shows such
    as “Alias” feature gorgeous women kicking butt with a brutality on
    par with men.

    “Aggressive women used to be represented in the media as fat and
    unattractive,” said Rachel Simmons, author of the best-selling
    book “Odd Girl Out.” “Now tough women are portrayed as beautiful and
    smile.”

    Art Feinberg, a guidance counselor at Bethlehem, Pa.’s Liberty High
    School, traces the so-called chick fights to the ever-closing
    behavior gap between girls and boys. Girls now are climbing into
    boxing rings, jumping on snowboards, and, for the first time this
    summer, wrestling at the Olympics.

    But the media is only part of the problem. There’s also the
    breakdown of the family and a deepening of the poverty line, Simmons
    said.

    In interviews with more than a dozen high school girls, all said
    they’d witnessed a girl fight in the last year, and many admitted —
    with pride — that they’d been in one.

    “She was saying stuff about me behind my back,” said Andrea Fuller,
    an 18-year-old junior at Liberty High School. “I had to confront
    her.”

    That meant popping the girl in the face.

    “You do what you have to to get the job done,” Fuller said after
    school recently. “It’s a hard place. Every day’s a fight.”

    Simmons, one of the first to bring the phenomenon into a national
    debate, said some girl fights have cultural roots. Black and Latino
    mothers encourage their daughters to take care of themselves.

    “They go to great lengths to prepare their daughters to respond to
    verbal attacks because they know they’re growing up in a racist and
    smile world,” Simmons said. “They empower their daughters to deal
    with affronts to their dignity.”

    Maribel Valentin is a good example. When she attended Allentown’s
    Allen High School in the 1980s, she was “abused,” she said, by
    females who called her names and spread gossip. Then she learned to
    fight and the insults stopped.

    Now, she advises her 17-year-old daughter, Marisela Ortiz, who also
    attends Allen, to do the same.

    “I told her if anyone comes up to her and starts bothering her,
    names don’t matter, you just hear it, it ain’t worth it, but if they
    keep it up and call her the ‘b’ word, that’s when you got to step up
    and start fighting,” she said. “I don’t want her to get arrested,
    because she’s almost 18, but if they keep bothering her that’s what
    she has to do.”

    Walking home from school the other day, Ortiz said she’s been
    fighting since she was 14 and isn’t afraid to take a swing.
    Especially when it’s warranted.

    “My mom says if I fight, I’d better win,” said Ortiz, a pretty girl
    with fiery eyes and long wavy hair.

    Boys and disrespect
    Girls say they fight primarily over boys, but woe to the girl who
    talks “junk” about another girl, spreads rumors or casts weighty
    looks interpreted as “disrespectful.”

    “If you pop lip we gonna be banging,” said Levette, a 15-year-old
    Liberty student.

    Some girls are just “haters” who start a fight because they don’t
    like a girl’s outfit or hairstyle, teens said. Navigating this
    social minefield isn’t frightening or cause for anxiety, girls said.
    They’re used to it.

    Victory is claimed by the girl who emerges with fewer injuries.
    Ashley, whose dirty-blond hair was pulled in a ponytail, said she
    was suspended from Southern Lehigh Middle School in Center Valley,
    Pa., last year for three days after tussling with a girl in the hall.

    “We were sacking each other, then we were rolling on the floor and
    pulling hair,” she said. “It didn’t last too long because the
    principal was right there.”

    Ashley proclaimed herself the winner. The other girl was bleeding.

    In some cases, a girl may strike another girl not because she has a
    problem with her, but with one of her friends.

    “They’re not rebels without a cause,” said Liberty’s
    Feinberg. “They’re rebels for someone else’s cause.

    “You’ll find three or four against one. My concern is they don’t
    seem to find a way to settle things. They’re like the Palestinians
    and the Israelis, the Hatfields and the McCoys. It goes on and on.”

    Many school districts have instituted bullying-prevention
    curriculums, anger-management classes, conflict mediation and oodles
    of programs aimed at making good choices.

    But fighting among girls continues.

    Mandell of KidsPeace said parents have to work with schools to curb
    the violence and be good role models for their daughters. Girls need
    to know fighting isn’t acceptable, he said.

    A year after she was attacked at South Mountain, the Allentown teen
    is in another school, where she feels safe and supported by her
    circle of friends. It’s her mother who worries. For her own
    protection, the mother now thinks, her daughter should fight back —
    even if it means she’d be suspended, too.

    “We’ve discussed enrolling her in martial art classes,” she
    said. “It happened once, it can happen again.”

    Sitting on a stool in the family’s kitchen, her knees tucked beneath
    her chin, the girl recognizes that her mother may be right — she’ll
    have to hit back the next time.

    “I’d be scared,” she said. Then pausing, added, “I think I could do
    it.”

    This story appeared in The Daily Herald on page D1.

     

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    dude
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:53 pm

    Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:35 pm
    Posts: 66
    rick_alexio wrote:
    Well, I don’t really need to read statistics but I’m sure there’s also plenty available…

    RA

    There are tons of those statistics. I posted only a few in my previous post.

    The reason why the ring fighters don’t want to discuss real streetfights? I don’t know, but my guess would be that (1) they all had so few (as the prior responses in this thread proved). (2) They know that if those other girls that had plenty of streetfights would fight them, then the MMA-type ring fighters would soon not fight anymore (cuz being defeated by all those streetfighters all the time would get you down). 😉

    So sad that streetfighters are underestimated on this MB. But they DO exist… in huge numbers. Your prior estimate (10%) might be an underestimate among some age groups and in some counties. It might be much higher!

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    rick_alexio
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:01 pm

    Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:00 am
    Posts: 122
    Location: Southern Cali/Las Vegas
    As suspected those are significant numbers as it is, but again, keep in mind that any statistics will only iinclude ‘reported’ incidents…which probably only account for less than a third of actual fights that happen…

    Bottom line, there are tons of female fights every day, exact numbers are not necessary…

    RA

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    dude
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:09 pm

    Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:35 pm
    Posts: 66
    rick_alexio wrote:
    As suspected those are significant numbers as it is, but again, keep in mind that any statistics will only iinclude ‘reported’ incidents…which probably only account for less than a third of actual fights that happen…
    RA

    Right, only those fights that these students asked in the government studies admitted to have had. So, yes, it’s underreported. But among some age groups and in some regions, it’s MUCH higher than the 10% that was speculated on earlier. And yet, it’s UNDERreported, as you say… And I think the question was “during past 12 months”… Overall, those percentages would double… even though it’s probably the same ppl that get in fights all the time. I just wish these pppl would come to this MB and see how much the “trained” ring fighters diss the streetfighters, so the streetfighters could challenge all these ring fighters. Instinct cannot be trained.

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    rick_alexio
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:32 pm

    Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:00 am
    Posts: 122
    Location: Southern Cali/Las Vegas
    But again, I do not quite agree with your speculation about why some women here may or may not talk about previous fights. Just like any other demographic, some have some have not…

    While it’s obvious you’re just trying to get a “rise” out of some of these girls, there’s really no realistic framework for ring fighters to go up against street fighters. Even girls who might be very experienced on the street would be at a serious disadvantage in the ring against any of these girls who’ve trained specifically for it.

    So I don’t really see any kind of “threat” from girls who street fight as much as potentially adding a lot more depth and future competition, which I doubt most of these women here would shy away from since it’s difficult to even find female opponents …the greater the depth of talent and competitive parity the greater prize money and exposure level will be for women’s mma…

    RA

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    Anthea
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:09 pm
    Pro Fighter

    Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:08 pm
    Posts: 120
    Location: New Zealand
    Well that’s just bloody great- the only time NZ is mentioned on this website (other than in my ramblings) is in a news report to show how much violence women over here are involved in 😕

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    dude
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:11 pm

    Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:35 pm
    Posts: 66
    rick_alexio wrote:
    Even girls who might be very experienced on the street would be at a serious disadvantage in the ring against any of these girls who’ve trained specifically for it.
    RA

    I doubt it… 😈

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    dude
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:13 pm

    Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:35 pm
    Posts: 66
    Anthea wrote:
    Well that’s just bloody great- the only time NZ is mentioned on this website (other than in my ramblings) is in a news report to show how much violence women over here are involved in 😕

    and that’s a bad thing? i know on this MB it is (where most ppl even seem to be afraid of owning up to number of streetfights they had), but in general, y is that such a bad thing? 😕

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    Anthea
    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:22 pm
    Pro Fighter

    Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:08 pm
    Posts: 120
    Location: New Zealand
    Being a fighter is a lot of hard work, requires a lot of discipline, and can take a huge amount of time out of your life- for example, i have training on sat at 8am and sunday at 9am so going out either night of the weekend is pretty much out of the question for me (wouldn’t want to sacrifice the quality of my training, especially if i have a fight coming up).

    So maybe people that are continually involved in street fights just aren’t the type that can knuckle down and be so dedicated to a sport such as MMA etc? But anyway, i can’t be assed arguing about this as other people have said similar things but you just don’t seem to want to listen 😕

    As for my quote about NZ, i would just prefer people would keep believing that NZ is a utopia where nothing bad happens (good for tourism) 😀

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    KnockOut2
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:44 pm

    Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:19 pm
    Posts: 439
    Location: Louisville, KY
    dude’s only motivation for posting on this forum is to sell his “streetfight” videos. Am I the only one that sees that?

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    Locrian
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:59 pm

    Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:57 pm
    Posts: 3
    Location: Bham AL US
    I didn’t even think he was that productive; he just struck me as a troll.

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