Weight lifting

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    Ruby
    Post subject: Weight lifting PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:34 pm

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    What weight lifting regime do you find most beneficial to your discipline?

    How often?
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    cosmic
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:05 am

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    a powerlifting routine – the 3 main lifts : squat, deadlift, bench. (compound lifts involing multiple muscle groups).

    whatever fits in with your schedule, goals, you can do 3 days (per week), a 2 day split, or even 1 day…..you will get benefit.

    women do not put on bulk…………
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    Ruby
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:13 am

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    cosmic wrote:
    women do not put on bulk…………
    You dont know how many times I hear people say they do not want to weight train because of that lol
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    GFC
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:48 am
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    of course women can put on bulk, look at many shot putters, female powerlifters and bodybuilders.

    also depends on genetics, some females can put on mass easier and need to be careful, while others can go heavier and not get too bulky.

    too much mass loses speed and stamina. this is not ideal for fighting, if anything, lighter weights and higher reps…bodyweight resistance type training and sprint work is best for fighting. female sprinters, gymnasts, figure and fitness competitors have the ideal physique, power, speed, and cardio combination for fighting…anything else is too big. unless she is overly thin to begin with…then you can do some powerlifting to gain some mass but only in order to get to that optimal fitness level, then just maintain.
    Last edited by GFC on Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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    Rikki
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:00 am
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    Women can put on bulk – but they have to work VERY hard to do it.

    I try to lift three times per week. Here’s my routine:

    Overhead press x 10
    Upright row x 10
    Squats x 10

    Bench press x 10
    Lunges x 10
    One arm bent over row x 10 each arm

    Decline tricep extensions x 10
    Decline sit ups x 20
    Back extensions x 20

    Squats x 10 (second set)

    As far as weight, I use whatever makes me feel like I’m going to fail on the last two reps. All the reps should be hard but those last two should be killer! Light weight / high reps is a waste of time, in my opinion.
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    GFC
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:21 am
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    rikki, true…but again it depends on the girl, some gain easier than others. you’re not doing powerlifting routine low reps/super high weight, there is a happy medium…sprinters lift weights but not the same way as shot putters. striking is like sprinting with the hands. but the point is the goal should be an optimal physique for speed, power, agility, and stamina…women can and do get far too bulky for that, female bodybuilders, powerlifters, shot putters, etc…all the top female fighters are not built like that, they are built like sprinters, gymnasts and fitness competitors because that is optimal for fighting.
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    Ruby
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:57 am

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    In terms of “bulk” it really comes down to Body fat, hypertrophy, diet and genetics. A woman can appear to be more “bulky” if her BF is a bit high and her diet is not optimal, or if her body naturally produces more muscle mass. I think it is important to remember that Power, Speed/Explosiveness and conditioning movements are all important factors to keep in your weight training regimine. The idea is to change it up to keep balance.

    So in order to maintain this balance, your weight training must consist of movements that involve Power (low rep, high weight, good form). Speed and Explosiveness ( low weight, low rep, dynamic movement) and muscle conditioning ( very high reps, low weight).

    When it comes to fighting, all fighters have different shapes and sizes. Like GFC said its genetics. However, they are not all built like sprinters, gymnists, or Fitness competitors.
    Rikki, I tend to agree that low weight, high rep is good for muscle conditioning outside of your fight conditioning. However, it is not a optimal if you are looking to gain power. The same can be said for Power movements will not increase speed. Which is why all aspects of weightlifting are important.
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    GFC
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:10 am
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    ruby, that explanation i would def agree with more. some of the top female fighters are built slightly thicker or lighter; however, there is a ‘range’ which is fairly consistent…but the extremes are what i’m talking about…anorexic-ly thin body types or hugely massed are not ideal for fighting…and women can get both, i could post numerous examples but i think we’ve all seen a number of hugely massed female powerlifters and bodybuilders. but as an example the current modern day top female fighter physique here’s a pic of germaine:
    Image
    now obviously germaine is *far* from bulky but plenty of women can get extremely massed compared to her through powerlifting. so give or take a few pounds germaine’s ‘range’ is the quintessential female fighting physique and benchmark.

    now i’ll post 1 example to “women do not put on bulk”…Image
    so obviously plenty of women can put on bulk, and at those levels in terms of fighting it will only help them kiss canvas…
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    Ruby
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:08 am

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    Not disrespect GFC, but I do not think it is appropriate to put a woman who on immense amounts of chemical enhancements to try and prove your point about women in weightlifting? That is like comparing Ronnie Coleman to Anderson Silva. They are 2 totally different types of people, in differnt weight classes, one is one drugs and the other is not, with two have totally different training goals.

    Germaine has her own physique and honestly should not be the status quo in regards to how a female fighter or athlete should look, since all women are built differently.
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    Ruby
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:13 am

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    If you ever have the time. Give this article a read through. Its pretty interesting.
    SHOULD FIGHTERS WEIGHT TRAIN ? Another great read:

    By: Skip “Disturbed” Hall

    As a career fighter, martial artist and ex-baseball player, I was told by nearly all of my trainers and instructors along the way specifically not to weight train! “It will take away from your flexibility. You’ll become muscle-bound. You’ll always be plagued with pulled muscles, tendons and ligaments. You need explosive strength and not brute muscle strength.” Now, many years later myself and hundreds of athletes know that every one of them was wrong!

    At 59 years of age and dedicated to strength training through a 5 time-a-week weight training regiment, I’m proof that they all were very wrong. First, none of the old myths are true with me or anyone else that I know who trains intelligently. I’m flexible enough to do the full splits and I can still use all of my extremities to perform normal body functions. While I’ve added significant muscle to my body through weight training and proper diet, I don’t think I’ve even approached being muscle-bound. Since I’ve been weight training (and powerlifting) for the past seven years continuously, I’ve had absolutely no pulled muscles, tendons or ligaments. As a matter of fact, I had more injuries when I wasn’t weight training. Today, I’m considerably stronger than when I started weight training and my strength is noticeably more explosive and enduring. As a matter of fact, the reason I started weight training was because I was being overpowered by the ambitious younger (and stronger) fighters and my speed alone wasn’t enough to keep me winning my fights.

    I fight in the most extreme type of fighting in the world and perhaps the most extreme sport in the world – Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) or No Holds Barred (NHB) cage fighting. MMA/NHB fighting requires both stand-up fighting and ground fighting skills. Fighting skills that require both upper and lower body strength. Fighting that needs muscles with both explosive and endurance-type muscle strength. And, I’m still able to compete in powerlifting at a world class level. So, even if you don’t factor in my age as being the oldest active no holds barred fighter in the world, weight resistance training is important to fighters. How?

    First, many studies indicate that weight training increases bone density, helps reduce muscle injury, increases muscle efficiency and is the best way to stimulate both slow- and fast-twitch muscle fibers. Those same studies prove that muscle size does not determine whether or not you will be slow or fast. That would be the same as saying that lifting weights slowly will make you slower and lifting them faster will make you faster and we know from common sense that isn’t true. Weight training is strength training and strength training makes a fighter stronger because stronger muscles are capable of producing more force. Fighters are definitely athletes and weight training is simply good for an athletes overall health and fitness. It is as simple as that.

    Secondly, many fighters overlook the fact that muscle strength for our sport requires what I term “range-of-motion” strength. I specifically mean that a fighter must have significant strength both at the extended and contracted end of his muscle’s range. An example is that a fighter must be as strong with his arms when he strikes an opponent with a punch as he is when using those same arms to hold an opponent tight and close to avoid getting punched. Another example is that a fighter’s legs must function on the extended end of the range of motion so that he can kick an opponent (the leg is outstretched) but the same legs must also be as strong when being used to keep an opponents body close when the opponent is trying to escape from underneath you on the ground. Both of these examples show the real need for weight resistance training for a fighter, because without working some specific weight training exercises for these needs a fighters body will suffer a weakness with the range-of-motion extremes.

    Finally, a fighter needs a combination of the two types of muscle strength – endurance and explosive strength. This is a type of muscle strength that I’ve termed “Explosive Endurance Strength.” The type weight training that fighters do should employ an explosive type exercise while using specific schemes to capitalize the endurance of that muscle strength. As an example, heavy weight with low repetitions are used for explosive strength training and lower weight with high repetitions are typically used for endurance type muscle strength. I use a split approach in my weight training to optimize the benefits of both type exercises but rather than do two different sets of exercises for the same muscle with varying amounts of weight, I simply change the type repetition I’m doing. An example is for leg strength. I use “timed squats” for building both type muscle strengths. I will use a long count (say 4 to 6 seconds) going down to a parallel position, a slight pause then an explosive fast movement to the top of the squat position. On the next set, I vary that exercise by dropping quickly to the parallel position, pausing slightly at the bottom, then using a long count of 4 to 6 seconds going back up to the top of the squat position. On the third set, I’ll use a long count going down, slight pause on the bottom, and a long count going up. Finally, I’ll start a set by going all the way down fast, slight pause at the bottom of the squat, then a slow 4 count up but this time I go only about one half of the way up, then return to the bottom and do the next rep. The result is both explosive and endurance type muscle strength. I do similar exercises for all body parts. It works for me and it will work for you.

    The point of this and other types of weight exercises for the fighter is that you can not get this type strength without doing weight resistance training. You can run until you puke your insides out. You can do crunches until your tongue hangs out. Push-ups until your hands hurt, but you’ll never realize your full and true potential until you add weight resistance training to your training routine. Don’t take my word for it, take the look of the guys that are in their 20’s that I beat then tell them that weight resistance training hasn’t worked for me. Not only has it worked, but it is a large part of why I believe I’m still successfully fighting and in excellent shape at 59 years old.
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    Rikki
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:20 am
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    Yeah, the picture of the body builder is not a good example. She has trained (and ate) specifically to put on that much mass. She is not training to be a fighter. But look at Erin Toughill – she has a lot of muscle mass and manages to keep her speed and stamina.

    Along with my weight training I do body weight conditioning drills (for strength and cardio), boxing foot work drills (for speed and cardio), and a lot of stretching. All of that on top of training for MMA, which is a cardio/conditioning/strength/flexibility workout in itself.
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    GFC
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:59 am
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    well first off you’re assuming she’s on drugs (or massive amounts) but that makes no difference for 2 reasons, (1 there are plenty of natural lifters with lots of mass and (2 whether she used drugs or not that amount of mass is a disadvantage in fighting. muscle bound fighters to that degree do not typically do well in fighting…in that respect your ronnie coleman analogy was an excellent one. if that were the case than fedor and other greats would all be top bodybuilders and powerlifters. it is no disrespect to ronnie or other bodybuilder/powerlifters…they train for bodybuilding/powerlifting, a fighter trains for fighting, 2 separate things.

    and erin toughill has a moderate amount of mass, again perhaps like a tall fitness model, but nowhere near that of some of the higher massed bodybuilder women and powerlifters….and, i believe the extra weight actually hurt erin and had she been a bit leaner/faster could have won some of the fights she lost.

    but bottom line *huge* muscles do not equate to being a better fighter, most all of the best have fitness or gymnast level muscularity, speed, and agility…no-one is saying weight resistance should not be part of a fighters regime, just that powerlifting to the degree and purpose to gain massive size is not an advantage, but a strong disadvantage in most cases.

    and as skip hall was stating, he has a ‘specifically’ designed weight training program for optimum explosive power and speed for fighting, which was exactly my point…same as sprinters use weight training Vs how a shot putter would. but the original point was “women do not build bulk” which they can and do if that is what they are specifically training for, balls- to-the- wall powerlifting which (if it gains too much mass) is not the type best for fighting.
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    Ruby
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:38 pm

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    GFC wrote:
    well first off
    but bottom line *huge* muscles do not equate to being a better fighter, most all of the best have fitness or gymnast level muscularity, speed, and agility…no-one is saying weight resistance should not be part of a fighters regime, just that powerlifting to the degree and purpose to gain massive size is not an advantage, but a strong disadvantage in most cases.

    which they can and do if that is what they are specifically training for, balls- to-the- wall powerlifting which (if it gains too much mass) is not the type best for fighting.

    😆 There aint no way in hell you are gonna convince me that the girl you posted is not on any enhancement.

    I dont remember anyone in any thread saying that big muscles=great fighter. That doesnt even make sense. It is possible to include heavy lifting in weight training and still keep your body in good condition to fight.

    Having a trainining regime that only consists of (low weights, and high reps) isnt benefical to any athlete, including a fighter. A weight training regimine that includes every aspect of muscle performance is key. There is no set physique for any top fighter. Just look at Randy, Fedor, Mark Hunt, Debi, Amanda Tara etc.etc. To me they do not look like fitness competitors or sprinters. Just like fighters do not have a “look”; weight training with heavy weights will not “bulk” you up and will not make you look like that chick in the pic!!!!!
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    GFC
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:05 pm
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    ruby, you’re welcome to think whatever you like. we can agree to slightly disagree (i do agree with much of what you’re saying) but there are women and men who can develop bulky muscle without the use of drugs and that is not ideal for fighting. speed=power and is one of *the* most important factors, it can amount to only a microsecond between who reaches who’s chin first which can mean the difference between knocking out your opponent or getting knocked out. a sprinter ‘type’ physique i used because it is closer to what is ideal for fighting, explosive power and speed with short burst and stamina…that combo…whereas, a shot putter or powerlifter is more one dimensional and lacks the speed and agility of a sprinter.

    all of those fighters you mentioned do not have overly massed physiques, and body % wise have proportionate amount of muscle to female or male fitness athletes combining, speed, power, agility, and stamina….the best/top fighters are very *balanced* not the overly massed powerlifting or bodybuilding physique types. of course they do not all look ‘exactly’ alike but they do all share the fact that they are not overly massed…which, many women and men ‘can’ get and without the use of (AAS) anabolic drugs. there are natural mesomorphs who can put on mass much easier than average….naturally built very stocky and bulky females who if they specifically train for powerlifting or bodybuilding can get even bulkier…whether you choose to believe that or not is your choice. 😉
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    Rikki
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:59 pm
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    GFC wrote:
    there are women and men who can develop bulky muscle without the use of drugs and that is not ideal for fighting
    I don’t think anyone is arguing that point. The point I was trying to make above is that those men and women are training and eating specifically to put on that bulk. It’s just not possible to look like the woman in that picture by only “lifting heavy”.
    Debi, Amanda, and Tara are all muscular women who don’t look like body builders and I bet none of them would describe their weight lifting routines as “low weight, high rep”. Just my $.02.
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    GFC
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:05 am
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    Rikki wrote:
    GFC wrote:
    there are women and men who can develop bulky muscle without the use of drugs and that is not ideal for fighting
    I don’t think anyone is arguing that point. The point I was trying to make above is that those men and women are training and eating specifically to put on that bulk. It’s just not possible to look like the woman in that picture by only “lifting heavy”.
    Debi, Amanda, and Tara are all muscular women who don’t look like body builders and I bet none of them would describe their weight lifting routines as “low weight, high rep”. Just my $.02.
    right, i agree, there is also a lot that goes into gaining that kind of mass including diet and consuming a tremendous amount of calories…but, there are also some females who are naturally muscular and can bulk up fairly easily, and if their objective is fighting need to be more cautious about getting too bulky. even (strictly drug tested) powerlifting women 135-140 bench over 200 lbs and squat over 400 lbs…thier objective is to lift as much as possible and bb to gain as much mass as poss…i highly doubt those are debi, amanda, and tara’s goals or anywhere near the weight they typically use…so let’s just say a “lower”weight than those objectives, but obviously not so low that you don’t get an ample amount of resistance.
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    cosmic
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:20 am

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    Ruby wrote:
    Not disrespect GFC, but I do not think it is appropriate to put a woman who on immense amounts of chemical enhancements to try and prove your point about women in weightlifting? That is like comparing Ronnie Coleman to Anderson Silva. They are 2 totally different types of people, in differnt weight classes, one is one drugs and the other is not, with two have totally different training goals.

    Germaine has her own physique and honestly should not be the status quo in regards to how a female fighter or athlete should look, since all women are built differently.
    I agree with Ruby.
    anyway, its very difficult for women to put on bulk…..not impossible…….
    higher weight, lower reps. the 5 x 5 routine is a good one.

    isolation exercises (body building) sucks compared to compound (power lifting).

    more women should do weights…resistance exercises are so important for women (osteoporosis) but not enough do it.

    wish I started weights earlier………..i have injuries from overuse (repetition) as a child doing martial arts with no weights.
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    GFC
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:45 am
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    bodyweight resistance exercises and gymnastics are excellent for fighting in addition to some weightlifting, i have done all of those since i was 7, and in that respect i also agree with ruby as long as it’s not to an overly massed level. if you’re a woman who has trouble putting on bulk then that’s an individual thing and in that case you prob should do some extra powerlifting to gain some mass and it’s not really an issue, but plenty of others can and do put on bulk easier. please speak for yourself and not all women. i used the sprinter analogy because i trained with a gf who was a college sprinter, totally natural, but had to cut back on powerlifting because her legs were getting too massed and she was losing significant speed on the track, when she cut back on heavier weight her speed improved again. everyone’s genetics are different. i think the best advice for any female fighter is very simple, look at the physiques and conditioning methods of the top female fighters and use that as a benchmark.
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    cosmic
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:21 pm

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    GFC wrote:
    bodyweight resistance exercises and gymnastics are excellent for fighting in addition to some weightlifting, i have done all of those since i was 7, and in that respect i also agree with ruby as long as it’s not to an overly massed level. if you’re a woman who has trouble putting on bulk then that’s an individual thing and in that case you prob should do some extra powerlifting to gain some mass and it’s not really an issue, but plenty of others can and do put on bulk easier. please speak for yourself and not all women. i used the sprinter analogy because i trained with a gf who was a college sprinter, totally natural, but had to cut back on powerlifting because her legs were getting too massed and she was losing significant speed on the track, when she cut back on heavier weight her speed improved again. everyone’s genetics are different. i think the best advice for any female fighter is very simple, look at the physiques and conditioning methods of the top female fighters and use that as a benchmark.
    perhaps we have different definitions of ‘bulk’.

    but if you think that woman shown in your example picture wasn’t on performance enhancing drugs, you are kidding yourself.
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    GFC
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:46 pm
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    whether she is or not, point is the top female fighters are not bulky even by natural standards, they are very balanced…there are tons of natural female athletes that are much bulkier…natural powerlifters, shot putters, natural bodybuilders. if you’re trying to say that no female can get bulkier than the average top ranked female fighter without anabolics you are *way* off and only kidding yourself. feel free to lift as much and heavy as you like, my point is that you ideally want to end up with a top female fighter’s physique not bulkier like a shot putters, etc. hey if you can train like a power lifter and not get overly massed, keep your speed, agility, and stamina…great, then more “power” to you, but others with different genetics could possibly become too bulky. like i said, my gf who was a sprinter started losing speed and her natural genetics just allowed her legs to get huge very easily…losing speed in sprinting or fighting is not a good thing.
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    Ruby
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:04 pm

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    cosmic wrote:
    [. the 5 x 5 routine is a good one.

    isolation exercises (body building) sucks compared to compound (power lifting).

    more women should do weights…resistance exercises are so important for women (osteoporosis) but not enough do it.

    .

    After I had my son, it took me forever to be able to regain my core strength. I had him through c section, so even after 4 months after scar was stil healing and I could barely do situps.

    Then, I trained using a 5×5 program and it helped me regain my core strength. 5×5 worked great for me to regain my strength on squats, DLing and OH movements this then carried over into a lot of other exercises.

    I love 5×5

    Olympic Lifting is another useful and fun way to train.
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    GFC
    Post subject: PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:37 pm
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    right i also agree a 5×5 can be very beneficial for many women especially coming back from injury or ‘trying’ to put on mass and gain strength, as can bodyweight training such as pull-ups since it uses more muscle groups together than simple isolation movements…that along with the weight used and diet are also important…and, individualized depending on where each women is and how her genetics responds.

    but even going back to what rikki mentioned earlier about a bigger girl like erin t, she is/was already a top fighter and in great condition but i believe erin is actually an even better fighter than she has shown. with a bit less bulk and more cut bodyfat % her strikes, kicks, and overall agility would have been a degree quicker and more precise without losing much if any power. again germaine de randamie is another prime example…*far* from bulky even by natural female athlete standards and yet one of (if not) the best right now…
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