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    Post subject: Thermogenics PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:29 am

    Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:46 am
    Posts: 33
    Location: Buffalo NY
    I want to start off by saying that I am NOT a nutritionist, nor am I a licensed physician. Any information gathered by my experiences and recommendations are to be used at your own risk.

    That being said I have had a lot of experience with various supplements over the years and I thought it couldn’t hurt to share my experiences and any information with you all. Since a lot of you compete and consequently cut weight I thought I would start with thermogenics, and go on to protein/creatine/vitamin/anabolic supplements or anything else requested as my time permits.

    Now, one thing to keep in mind with cutting weight is that thermogenics can help but they aren’t the “magic bullet” so to speak. If you eat garbage and don’t train hard, any effects gained will be minimal if at all.

    I’ll try to remember all the brands and products I have taken, but I may be missing some…

    Ephedra Based Products:
    Currently illegal in the US, ephedra is a very potent fat loss supplement. It is also a very dangerous supplement if you do not take it correctly and monitor your conditions closely. Many people know that it can make you “jittery”, but the side effect to be scared of is cardiac arrest. Yeah, play around with ephedra and you CAN die. BE CAREFUL!!!

    That being said you can take it safely and have fantastic results. Get a checkup with a doctor first to make sure your blood pressure and general level of health is good. You’re going to be accelerating a lot of metabolic processes and you want to make sure you can physically handle it. The problem with fighters/lifters/dedicated athletes is that you can metally tough it out, even when your body can’t.

    If you decide to do it, a 20mg Ephedrine : 200mg Caffeine stack is ideal (1:10 ratio) but 25mg:200mg is still fine, it depends on the product you’re taking. Just make sure you’re using reputable sources (if you’re “importing”) or you will have a less than effective (or potentially dangerous) stack.

    If you are used to stimulants (a regular coffee/caffeinated soft drink drinker etc.) then you shouldn’t need to ramp up. However, monitor your caffeine intake when you’re in your EC cycle. You’re altering your heart rate and doubling up on the caffeine can be quite dangerous.

    If you are tolerant already to caffeine then go with 25mg/200mg EC stack 2x per day (25mg/200mg per serving for an end of day total of 50mg/400mg). Space it out so it interferes minimally with your regular eating, sleeping, working out patterns. Don’t take it within 5-6 hours before you plan on going to sleep.

    A sample cycle would be
    Week 1: 25mg/200mg (Ephedra/Caffeine) 1x daily (pre-workout dose)
    Week 2-5: 25mg/200mg 2x daily
    Week 6: 25mg/200mg 1x daily (pre-workout dose)

    If is your first cycle go with 4-6 weeks on (adjust time frame of the above cycle as appropriate), then 4 weeks off. DO NOT take more than 50mg/day of ephedrine during this first cycle (during advanced cycles you will only take 75mg so for now 50mg will be more than enough). If you’re patient and can minimize or eliminate the use of other stimulants during your off cycle, your subsequent cycles will be much more effective. Going forward you can advance cycle length and dosage.

    An example of an advanced cycle would be
    Week 1: 25mg/200mg 1x daily (pre-workout) first 3 days, 2x daily last 4 days
    Week 2-4.5: 25mg/200mg 3x daily
    Week 4.5-5: 25mg/200mg 2x daily
    Week 6: 25mg/200mg 1x daily

    If you’ve never used ephedrine before I’ll just say the key to maximum effectiveness is to start slow and pay attention to your body. It can be a huge help, but it’s not the type of thing you want to screw around with because you can end up in deep shit. Just be mindful and you’re going to enjoy some great results. Also, drink plenty of water during an EC cycle. If you are trying to sweat to cut weight and you’re on an EC cycle you risk some SERIOUS problems.

    **NOTE: Some people will advocate an ECA stack (Ephedra, Caffeine, Aspirin). Don’t do it, adding aspirin to the stack will give you NO gains and will have some negative side effects from prolonged use. I will post an article in a minute.**

    Products Used (all very similar, liquid/powder form is the best): Metaform EC, Ripped Fuel, Ultimate Orange (best fat burning supp I’ve ever used)
    Side effects: JITTERS, Really high highs, exteme heart rate elevation, nausia (bad sign…), light-headed (another bad one…), mild emotional instability due to accelerated metabolic processes

    Ephedra-Free Products:
    Mostly Caffienated products, they’ll get you sick if you don’t drink enough water and you will get a “strung-out” feeling. While they aren’t the safest thing, they aren’t as “mysterious” as ephedra is to people so my description will be abbreviated.

    Obviously even though the legal products in the US today are ephedra free, they are still stimulants and should be taken seriously. Yes they are less of a danger but they can still be quite harmful if you abuse them. Monitor your heart rate and blood pressure, and make sure if you start feeling sick to stop what you’re doing. Nausia is a danger sign, don’t ignore it.

    Products Used:
    Hydroxycut- I thought it was so-so. I tried it for a while and decided it wasn’t worth it. If you’re looking for a good product, try something else.
    Side effects- Highs and crashes, headaches.

    Gree Tea Extract- Natural product. It’s alright, but if you take it do it for health benefits not fat loss…
    Side effects- Nothing

    Vivarin- Just straight caffeine. By itself it’s Ok but there are much better things out there.
    Side effects- Highs and crashes, headaches, occasional nausia

    Lipo-6- This is what I’m currently taking and so far it’s great. I’d liken it to some ephedra products in terms of effectiveness.
    Side effects- You get really amped up but you don’t crash (or at least I haven’t yet), occasional nausia if you get really dehydrated.

    That’s all I can really remember, feel free to post your experiences too. If you have any questions please post those as well. Hope this is useful to people.


    Post subject: PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:30 am

    Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:46 am
    Posts: 33
    Location: Buffalo NY
    This is from an article written by Stephen Schmitz, MD, MPH and Bruce Kneller, BSN-RN.


    “Aspirin {salicyclic acid acetate} and it’s naturally occurring methyl ester (methyl salicylate)– found in the leaves of Gaultheria procumbrens and on the bark of Betula lenta– have long been used as analgesics, anti-inflammatories, antipyretics and recently as anti-coagulants. The “A” portion of ECA, aspirin has been thought of potentiating the thermogenic and lipolytic properties of both ephedrine and caffeine. Recent research seems to contradict this however. At a study at The University of London’s Department of Nutrition and Dietetics, 40 women (20 non-obese and 20 obese) were given either ephedrine and caffeine (30 mg and 100 mg) or ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin (30 mg, 100 mg, and 300 mg) post prandially (1050 kJ liquid meal). Using indirect calorimetry, observations were made in all groups every 30 minutes for 160 minutes. There was no significant differences between the groups that received aspirin and the groups that did not. We conclude that aspirin does not potentiate the acute thermic effect of ephedrine and caffeine.6

    In another study conducted at King’s College in London, it was demonstrated that aspirin does not potentiate the thermogenic response to ephedrine in lean women and only slightly so in obese women.7 The increase seen in this study represented a 1.2 kcal per hour increase in metabolism for lean women and a 2.4 kcal per hour increase in metabolism in obese women over use of ephedrine alone, which over an entire week, would represent less than one ounce of bodyweight. We feel that this is insignificant.7

    Based on these two studies, we feel that aspirin and its analogs do not play a substantial role in inducing or increasing thermogenesis and/or lipolysis but they do have the potential to induce SAEs when consumed over long periods of time (e.g. ulceration of the stomach and increases in bleeding times). Therefore, we feel that aspirin and it’s analogs should not be used in any thermogenic/lipolytic stack.”

    6) Horton TJ, Geissler CA. Post-prandial Thermogenesis with Ephedrine, Caffeine and Aspirin in Lean, Predisposed Obese and Non-obese women. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disorder, 1996 Feb;20(2):91-95.
    7) Horton TJ, Geissler CA. Aspirin Potentiates the Effect of Ephedrine on the Thermogenic Response to a Meal in Obese but not Lean Women. Int J Obes, 1991 May;15(5):359-366.

    Most of the arguements that people make for aspirin state that aspirin extends the thermogenic effects of ephedrine by inhibiting the enzyme cyclooxygenase and therefore decreasing prostaglandin synthesis (why aspirin is an anti-inflammatory). This helps combat one of ephedrine’s effects. Ephedrine stimulates the release of norepinephrine, which stimulates the release of adenosine and the synthesis of prostaglandins by the activated tissue. Since aspirin inhibits the synthesis of prostaglandins (1), it is believed it enhances the effect of norepinephrine (the reason why caffeine is included in the stack to combat adenosine). By increasing the amount of norepinephrine one would expect to increase lipolysis. Caffeine achieves this, however in actual studies aspirin as yet to prove the same. One can only hypothesize on why aspirin’s effect on prostaglandins does not effect lipolysis.

    There have been no studies that I am aware of that show that an ECA stack is more effective than an EC stack. The only studies that have been proven to work are when an ECA stack has been done in a study against a placebo. Couple this information with the effects aspirin has on the stomach (nausea, heartburn, and sometimes bleeding ulcers) one could conclude that the most effective stack would be just Ephedrine and Caffeine.

    1. Rawson ES, Clarkson PA. Ephedrine as an ergogenic aid. Performance-enhancing Substances in Sport and Exercise. Ed Bahrke MS, Yesalis CE. Human Kinetics. 2002.


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